I recently saw that Berger makes a 90 grain 22 cal bullet with nearly identical BC as the 105 6mm Hybrid bullet. If you chamber a barrel correctly for this bullet and have the correct twist will it perform nearly the same as the 105 Hybrid in a 6BR? This would allow you to shoot FTR with much less recoil than the high BC 308 rounds, .223 components are obvously cheaper than 6BR as well.
.223 Running 90 Berger VLD versus 6BR Running 105 Hybrid
- Thread starter zanemoseley
- Start date
They can be close, but at times, with the right down range velocity, the .223 can at times improve upon it, but for the most part, yes, they are pretty equal. That has been what i have come to see in my research on it. Others my differ in their knowledge of about it or may know something i don't. It has been a while since i have looked into it.. i have shot the 6BR at 1K, i will be honest with you, i would rather shoot the .223
Do a search on the 223 with 90s in the 'Small Stuff' section where there is a great deal of material. In a properly chambered 30-inch barrel, the 90gn VLD can be driven to 2,850 fps and is ballistically comparable to many .308 Win loads and the 6BR.
There are downsides though which has mostly seen the 223 kept to mid range competition. It is a sod to load for - everything has to be perfect for it to perform consistently. Plus or minus 0.1gn powder charges are no good for instance; brass has to be very consistent and fully prepped and so on so forth.
Even then, the curse of the 223 / 90 at long distances (800-1,000) is the elevation flier. There is a recent thread on the forum showing results of FTR loads on the electronic targets at the US Nationals at Lodi.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...bullet-with-wicked-0-328-g7-bc.3909267/page-5
Look at the retained velocities for the 223 load v those of the two 308 loads used - they are huge by comparison. No matter how good one's MV spread is, the 90s don't seem to perform as consistently over 1,000 yards as equivalents in other calibres.
Bryan Litz of Berger Bullets has never been a great fan of his own 90s. He stated on this forum a while back that a 223 Hybrid would likely eventually appear but would be lighter than 90gn, probably somewhere in the 82-85gn band.
There are downsides though which has mostly seen the 223 kept to mid range competition. It is a sod to load for - everything has to be perfect for it to perform consistently. Plus or minus 0.1gn powder charges are no good for instance; brass has to be very consistent and fully prepped and so on so forth.
Even then, the curse of the 223 / 90 at long distances (800-1,000) is the elevation flier. There is a recent thread on the forum showing results of FTR loads on the electronic targets at the US Nationals at Lodi.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...bullet-with-wicked-0-328-g7-bc.3909267/page-5
Look at the retained velocities for the 223 load v those of the two 308 loads used - they are huge by comparison. No matter how good one's MV spread is, the 90s don't seem to perform as consistently over 1,000 yards as equivalents in other calibres.
Bryan Litz of Berger Bullets has never been a great fan of his own 90s. He stated on this forum a while back that a 223 Hybrid would likely eventually appear but would be lighter than 90gn, probably somewhere in the 82-85gn band.
FWIW there are a couple of sling shooters running the .223/90gr. combination with success. One gent at our club uses a 30" barrel and a gain twist barrel of his own spec to achieve close to 3000 fps.. He is not shooting inside his Palma rifle (with which he absolutely NAILS at 1K) but is certainly able to shoot cleans. A bit more load development would no doubt improve even more. I am definitely considering one as well!
Looking at some reviews it doesn't appear that the 90 grain SMK is much more forgiving. If its a PITA to load for I'm not sure its a great idea.
Down South
FTR Junkie
Near 3000 ftps with the 90s is smoking! No doubt hard on brass! All the guys i know round here run them 2800-2850.
Kinda off topic but a friend of mine has found similar results as @Laurie stated using the 90s in a 22-243. Even with the added velocity of the 243 case they were still very picky and finicky to get to hold. As soon as he stepped back down to the 77gr. It started shooting and holding accuracy easily. Not that it can't be done it's just sometimes it's not worth the battle to some people. I'm not necessarily bias, but from day one the 6BR just shoots.... You can spend all day trying to figure out why and talk about theories but the fact is, it just does it. Kinda of like the 6ppc for 100/200 yard. IMO some cartridges are just more inherently accurate than others. And imo, the 6BR is one of those. It just seems to want to shoot, you really don't have to "make it shoot" like the 223. I hope I'm writing this clear enough to understand .
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praveen
Administrator
I shoot both, Berger 90s in my .223 and 105 Hybrids in my 6 dasher.
At 300 yards, both can clean the target. The difference would be in the number of Xs.
At 600 yards, its another story. With calm or mild winds, they are both comparable. However, if winds get fast or gusty, the 105 in a dasher is way better than the .223. Even a .308 with the same or even a lower BC will do better than the .223.
At 1000 yards, the difference just magnifies.
I kept thinking about the reason for this mismatch and I think that BC is just about the drag on the bullet. However, the gysoscopic stability of the bullet is directly proportional to its weight. And the amount of deflection on a bullet by the wind is essentially about how gyroscopically stable the bullet is.
In my experience, heavier bullets do better that lighter ones, given all other conditions remain the same.
At 300 yards, both can clean the target. The difference would be in the number of Xs.
At 600 yards, its another story. With calm or mild winds, they are both comparable. However, if winds get fast or gusty, the 105 in a dasher is way better than the .223. Even a .308 with the same or even a lower BC will do better than the .223.
At 1000 yards, the difference just magnifies.
I kept thinking about the reason for this mismatch and I think that BC is just about the drag on the bullet. However, the gysoscopic stability of the bullet is directly proportional to its weight. And the amount of deflection on a bullet by the wind is essentially about how gyroscopically stable the bullet is.
In my experience, heavier bullets do better that lighter ones, given all other conditions remain the same.
'Target / Fullbore Rifle' makes a lot of sense with 223. The recoil reduction likely provides a greater reward over 308 than in FTR given the lighter rifle and only sling support. With the much larger ring area of the TR target centre compared to F-Class (double the diameter, 4 times the area) there is a lot more leeway for the occasional elevation 'funny'. The main issue here is whether the rules let you use 90s. Unless it's been changed recently, the bullet weights for 308 are 'less than 156gn' for 308 Win and 'less than 81gn' for 223 under ICFRA rules. Fine bullet though the Berger 80.5gn BT Fullbore is, it struggles to match the ballistics of the better 155s in 308 at long ranges. (IIRC, the Canadian DCRA changed this to 91gn a few years ago to put the two cartridges on a more even external ballistics footing.)
I agree with you entirely on the 6BR's inherent precision and good manners, ease of tuning etc. Even the 'cooking' version is remarkably capable of producing superb groups at 1,000 yards - we have several in the UK that do just that in 1,000 yard BR. Up to 600 yards in F though, a really well set up 223 shooting 90s will give the BR a run for its money. They are in different classes of course and as the BR and even the Dasher suffers a considerable ballistic disadvantage to the sevens shooting 180gn VLDs, Hybrids and suchlike, it's become a bit of a rarity in all but short-distance F-Class these days, so the two are rarely pitted against each other in a match now.
Back in 2010/11 when I was shooting 223/90 in GB national level FTR with the occasional international match with the 90gn Berger VLD at 2,910 fps it was competitive with 308 Win in FTR in matches that were all shot over 800 to 1,000 yards. Since then, I've had to drop MVs a bit given a barrel change or two and whilst 223 has plateaued, 308 has moved on very far with Lapua Palma brass and new bullets so the 223 is no longer competitive in L-R events. I'm hoping to revive my 223s though with a new powder we have that you don't see in the US, Nitrochemie's Reload Swiss RS52 - same as Alliant Re17 (also manufactured by Nitrochemie using the same advanced technologies) but with an equivalent burning speed to VarGet / Re15.
eric n
Silver $$ Contributor
I found the 90 smk quite easy to tune.
The more I shoot, the more I take internet info with a huge grain of salt.
I've said the 90s are hard to tune in the past. Looking back, I simply didn't know how to tune.
The other thing I changed was going from a stock 505 scale to a gem pro and eventually a fx120. I do believe weighing to less then .01 repeatably and accurately helps but being firmly in a powder/seating node is critical. Yes, the nodes are small.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I had/have a Savage that I had problems getting to shoot the 90VLD, but that rifle was snake bit. One day I will pick it bc up, most/all of the problems were jsut screw ups on my part(shooting with loose action screws kind of stuff)
When I put a 224 barrel on my R700 F-TR backup rifle, and got a bolt for it, I found the 90VLD worked very well as long as I have followed the recipe, and the recipe workd for about 9 out of 10 shooters who try it. I initially tried to find something other than Varget to use. When I finally broke down and started loading Varget it worked, and low and behold I got the same asnwer that pretty much everyone I've talked to has used, and it works.
Get Dave Kiff's ISSF 223 reamer with the .169 freebore. (I usually type that line twice, it's important)
Use Lapua or Lake City brass (it may work with others, I know it works with those)
SRM primers, pick one, I use Tula
Varget, 24.5 ±.2 grains will be your load. Test and find your sweet spot, but that is where it will be.
Load jammed +0.010*
This should get you just around or over 2800FPS. For most, chasing a higher node than this is where this bullet becomes really difficult.
Now go out and shoot X's.
*You should start there, get a load then test seating depth. I didn't bother, when I worked up loads for this barrel my 300 yard test groups had verticals in the .1s and I called my load work over. Greg in Cali has found a load that works for him with H4895 and jumping 0.015 to 0.020 if I recall, but he has said his load loosens his Lapua pockets in 4 firings. SOme others have reported good results at .020 jump.
I agree that if the wind is whipping up the 90VLD is giving up a little to a 308, but on days when you are not holding past the 9 ring the differnece is slight. It is not unusual for me to put up well over 50% X counts at 600 yards and in. Personally I don't use the 223 beyond 600 yards. I have 308s for that.
The bottom line for me is that at mid range, even if the 223 does give up about a bullet diameter per MPH of wind to a 308 with 200s, the 90VLD is still very compeditive balistically, you don't suffer from any kind of recoil fatigue, and it's just such absolute fun to shoot the little rat gun. (oh yea, and it's cheaper) It is really like the shooting you used to do as a kid with a rimfire. I'd also recommend it for juniors who may not be ready for the recoil of the 308 with revved up F-TR loads.
If I was a sling shooter and shooting on the bigger HP targets at Mid Range I'd never shoot anything else.
When I put a 224 barrel on my R700 F-TR backup rifle, and got a bolt for it, I found the 90VLD worked very well as long as I have followed the recipe, and the recipe workd for about 9 out of 10 shooters who try it. I initially tried to find something other than Varget to use. When I finally broke down and started loading Varget it worked, and low and behold I got the same asnwer that pretty much everyone I've talked to has used, and it works.
Get Dave Kiff's ISSF 223 reamer with the .169 freebore. (I usually type that line twice, it's important)
Use Lapua or Lake City brass (it may work with others, I know it works with those)
SRM primers, pick one, I use Tula
Varget, 24.5 ±.2 grains will be your load. Test and find your sweet spot, but that is where it will be.
Load jammed +0.010*
This should get you just around or over 2800FPS. For most, chasing a higher node than this is where this bullet becomes really difficult.
Now go out and shoot X's.
*You should start there, get a load then test seating depth. I didn't bother, when I worked up loads for this barrel my 300 yard test groups had verticals in the .1s and I called my load work over. Greg in Cali has found a load that works for him with H4895 and jumping 0.015 to 0.020 if I recall, but he has said his load loosens his Lapua pockets in 4 firings. SOme others have reported good results at .020 jump.
I agree that if the wind is whipping up the 90VLD is giving up a little to a 308, but on days when you are not holding past the 9 ring the differnece is slight. It is not unusual for me to put up well over 50% X counts at 600 yards and in. Personally I don't use the 223 beyond 600 yards. I have 308s for that.
The bottom line for me is that at mid range, even if the 223 does give up about a bullet diameter per MPH of wind to a 308 with 200s, the 90VLD is still very compeditive balistically, you don't suffer from any kind of recoil fatigue, and it's just such absolute fun to shoot the little rat gun. (oh yea, and it's cheaper) It is really like the shooting you used to do as a kid with a rimfire. I'd also recommend it for juniors who may not be ready for the recoil of the 308 with revved up F-TR loads.
If I was a sling shooter and shooting on the bigger HP targets at Mid Range I'd never shoot anything else.
I don't think it the bullet is is the case .
A 223 dont have enough case capicity to send the bullet fast enough Larry
A 223 dont have enough case capicity to send the bullet fast enough Larry
Thanks for making that detailed post. It matches my experience almost exactly.
I fiddled around with the VLD 90s in my old 26" 1:7 twist barrel without success. It shot the 80gr version great but was inconsistent with the 90's. So I bought a new 30" 1:6.5 twist barrel and tried various powders with better results, but not good enough to replace the winning recipe I had been using with the Berger VLD 80gr bullets.
I spotted a jug of Varget on the shelf at my local test range and bought it on a lark. Sure enough, after limited testing I arrived at something very close to your recommendations.
I bought Kiff's ISS reamer.
I use Lapua brass
I use CCI 450 magnum primers
I found 24.12gr Varget to be the most accurate, a little lighter than your sweet spot.
I found that a jam of .010" to be good.
My MV is 2770, slightly lower than your MV which makes sense with my lighter load.
I have a 600 yd F/TR match day after tomorrow, so I loaded 80 of these rounds. I've got my fingers crossed.
I'll make another mini charge weight test next week to see if I can get a little bit more MV using a slightly heavier charge of Varget. But I'm not done searching for higher MV just yet. I just got a jug of Reloader 15 to test. The bad news is that I enjoy careful load testing and I have trouble knowing when to stop.
Would a 22 PPC or BR make up the difference at less pressure?
It will indeed go faster, that is for sure!
stacy
2 TIMOTHY 2 VERSE 15
WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!! DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!! TRY ONE AND YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR THINKING!!!!
Ok I wrong by the run too slow the wind mess to much with them . Time in the air . The drop like a rock at longer yards . But thanks for letting me know . Larry
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