223 Remington Extraction Problem

[Pirate69]

I think I am going to need some help figuring this problem out. I have been using a Lee Resizing Die to resize Winchester 223 Rem brass. I am resizing the neck about 75%. I wanted to use a Lee Collet Die to get away from case lubing. I picked one up and have resized 50 cases and loaded 20 for firing. Shooting today, I found the fired brass to be difficult to extract. There required little effort to lift the bolt but retracting the bolt was difficult. In a number of cases, the bolt had to be tapped with a piece of wood to get the bolt moving back. This is from a load that has not indicated any pressure signs in the past and chronographs where expected. Chamber pressure should be around 41,000 psi. Oddly enough, if the piece of fired brass is rechambered, it sticks on the retraction again.

I was thinking that I had a dirty chamber, and the brass was sticking as a result. Back home, I soaked the chamber and let it set. Then I brass bore brushed it repeatedly to breakup any carbon that may have been there.
While the bore was soaking, I took some brass measurements. I selected a piece of fired brass, a collet die resized piece and a loaded round. From each piece of brass I took five measurements. They were case mouth I.D. (except loaded round), case mouth O.D., shoulder/case body intersection, about halfway down the body and immediately above the case head. The measurements have been complied in the table below. Except for the expected difference in the case mouth measurements for a fired and resized case, everything else looked basically the same. There were three separate pieces of brass used in these measurements.

I decided to check shoulder movement. I selected one piece of brass that required the wood mallet to extract. Using a Lock‑N‑Load® Headspace Comparator, I measured the fired case. It measured 1.460 inches. I resized the case using the collet die and it again measured 1.460". Checked chambering. It chambered easily but again required a tapping to extract. Ran the same case through the Lee sizing die and it measured 1.460". Checked chambering. It both chambered and extracted easily.

Next steps. I will resize some of the fired brass using the resizing die and fire them. I hope the problem disappears. I believe the brass I fired today was collet resized.

I will also fire some milsurp rounds and see how they extract.

I am open to all comments and suggestions on additional things to do.

	Fired Case	Lee Collet Die Sized	Loaded Round
Case Mouth I.D.	0.223	0.220
Case Mouth O.D.	0.251	0.245	0.246
Shoulder/Body	0.355	0.355	0.355
Midway Body	0.365	0.364	0.364
Above Case Head	0.374	0.374	0.374
Calculated Neck Thickness	0.014	0.013
	Fired Case	Lee Collet Die Sized	Lee Die Neck Sized, 75%
Shoulder Datum	1.460	1.460	1.460
Chamber?	Yes	Yes	Yes
Extract?	NO	NO	Yes

Corrected Table.

	Fired Case	Lee Collet Die Sized	Loaded Round
Case Mouth I.D.	0.2225	0.220
Case Mouth O.D.	0.251	0.245	0.246
Shoulder/Body	0.355	0.364	0.355
Midway Body	0.365	0.364	0.364
Above Case Head	0.374	0.374	0.374
Calculated Neck Thickness	0.014	0.013
	Fired Case	Lee Die Neck Sized, 75%
Shoulder Datum	1.460	1.460
Case Mouth I.D.	0.223	0.220
Case Mouth O.D.	0.252	0.245
Shoulder/Body	0.354	0.351
Midway Body	0.365	0.364
Above Case Head	0.374	0.374
Calculated Neck Thickness	0.015	0.013
Chamber?	Yes	Yes
Extract?	NO	Yes

 

[ELR LVR]

Dirty chamber is a good culprit
I was thinking tight chamber at first (at the .200 line)
did you try FL length sizing the brass first before then Lee Collet sizing them?
just wondering if the brass had been fired in another chamber previously and you only Collet sized them

 

[RegionRat]

I will suggest that if you are going to use the Lee Collet Die for the necks, you should also consider something like a body die to control the bump and the diameters.

The Lee Collet Die doesn't touch the shoulders or body, and those will not take long before they produce the symptoms you are reporting.

If you own a Type S Bushing die, you can use it without the bushing to do the same thing.

 

[Pirate69]

Dirty chamber is a good culprit
I was thinking tight chamber at first (at the .200 line)
did you try FL length sizing the brass first before then Lee Collet sizing them?
just wondering if the brass had been fired in another chamber previously and you only Collet sized them

When I first processed the brass it was full length sized. Then was about 90 rounds in the lot. There were multiple lots due to the fact that I had gone through the 500 or so cases that I had bought years ago and sorted them by weight (+or- 0.5 grains) and then FL sized. Then fired before I got the Collet Die. Good Question.

 

[Pirate69]

I will suggest that if you are going to use the Lee Collet Die for the necks, you should also consider something like a body die to control the bump and the diameters.

The Lee Collet Die doesn't touch the shoulders or body, and those will not take long before they produce the symptoms you are reporting.

If you own a Type S Bushing die, you can use it without the bushing to do the same thing.

View attachment 1691372

But this is a good question because the point at which I made the measurement above the case head is the point that I see some blighting of the fired case base, as if it has been scrubbed. A FL sizing test may be in order if problem is not solved.

Remeasured an original fired, and neck sized case. See a different measurement at the shoulder and mid-body. Maybe there is a diameter reduction by sizing. Table has been edited and includes data omitted before.

If the partially neck sized cases extract after firing, I guess I could add a step by collet sizing after partial neck sizing to enhance neck roundness. But I am then back to lubing. Or I could buy a body die.

 

[distinguished]

Looks like the brass has been fired through different rifles and should be small base sized first to bring the case back to the same dimensions as new unfired brass. Then keep that brass to be used in this rifle only.

 

[L.Sherm]

Look at your measurements at the case head you have .374 sized and .374 fired i will bet money theres your problem.
If you look at a saami 223 reamer print it is .3769 at the base which ive never had a problem with but .374 I have.
My guess is poor chamber to die match which always seems to rear its ugly head with .374. Your option is open up the back end or small base die.

 

[RegionRat]

But this is a good question because the point at which I made the measurement above the case head is the point that I see some blighting of the fired case base, as if it has been scrubbed. A FL sizing test may be in order if problem is not solved.

Remeasured an original fired, and neck sized case. See a different measurement at the shoulder and mid-body. Maybe there is a diameter reduction by sizing. Table has been edited and includes data omitted before.

If the partially neck sized cases extract after firing, I guess I could add a step by collet sizing after partial neck sizing to enhance neck roundness. But I am then back to lubing. Or I could buy a body die.

One more pointer.

When inspecting lengths on cartridges and cases, the use of the third decimal point will be okay most of the time. However, when it comes to the study of the shoulder-body or 0.200 line diameters, you really should be in the fourth decimal point.

Good Luck.

 

[Pirate69]

Look at your measurements at the case head you have .374 sized and .374 fired i will bet money theres your problem.
If you look at a saami 223 reamer print it is .3769 at the base which ive never had a problem with but .374 I have.
My guess is poor chamber to die match which always seems to rear its ugly head with .374. Your option is open up the back end or small base die.

I see what you are saying. Question: Is this a quality problem with the die or the rifle barrel?

 

[RegionRat]

Question: Is this a quality problem with the die or the rifle barrel?

The point he is making... is that if your chamber is undersized, it is likely your typical die will not get that brass back inside the diameter that clears the tight chamber since commercial dies are made assuming the chamber is in spec.

To study the brass at the 200 line and shoulder, you will want a decent micrometer instead of something like a 6" caliper.

 

[BHP9]

I had problems with my Rem 700 in 223, until I used the small base die, and now I only use the SB die rather than the standard die.

Problem solved.

 

[Walt Krafft]

What are you measuring with, caliper or micrometer? Three decimal points is not enough info. The body needs sizing if it wont extract.

 

[L.Sherm]

I had problems with my Rem 700 in 223, until I used the small base die, and now I only use the SB die rather than the standard die.

Problem solved.

That's fine if you dont use bushing dies, problem is people like me prefer bushings and its a PITA. People used to think tight tolerances was better well they cause more problems than there worth and even alot of BR guys have gone away from that.
Die makers make dies off of saami spec unless you go the custom route, you go the .3769 route at the back end you won't have problems with off the shelf FL sizing dies

 

[Pirate69]

Thanks Guys, now I understand. A measured 0.374" fired, measured case indicates my chamber is somewhere around 0.374"; not the SAAMI of 0.3769".

Currently my micrometer would require me to estimate the fourth decimal point.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Do you measure the length of your brass, have you colored a case(marker) to check for contact after chambering and extract ??

 

[searcher]

Reading over your post, I was wondering - was this brass new before firing the first time in your rifle? Is your rifle a factory-chambered rifle?

A chamber has to get REALLY dirty to require knocking on the bolt as you describe. If it was a bad chamber, you would have likely noticed this from shot one. If you had successfully fired brass in this rifle without encountering this issue previously - I'd guess the chamber is not the problem. Of the five measurements you took, I'd have betted that the one just above the base would have shown you that it had expanded - though your measurement said otherwise - which led me to wonder about the brass having been fired (and already expanded in another chamber? If that be the case, full-length sizing should provide the fix. if not - you may need a small base die as others have noted.

 

[Pirate69]

Do you measure the length of your brass, have you colored a case(marker) to check for contact after chambering and extract ??

1.750" and NO. Will check contact.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I use range brass alot, mostly once fired from carbine classes at my club(semi only). I follow one rule, if I FL size the brass and it doesn't drop fit my ammo checker it is scrap. Die manufacturers will tell you the same thing. I don't have a SB die just a standard RCBS 223. The range brass is normally a mix of brands. I don't separate unless there are some of the heavy brass (IMI and couple others). Most cleanups I have 1 or 2 out of 100 that don't size to the plunk test. With those culled out, I don't have any surprise fitment issues after loading or after several load/size cycles. I do anneal(torch/drill) but not each cycle. Because the brass has been on the ground(usually grass/dirt areas) I tumble clean no media. So I always lube inside the necks before seating bullets and mandrel step. This brass is used in several bolt and gas guns(all factory chambers 223 and Wyde, one 556).

 

[jpjulian]

Full length resize. Get a chamber gauge, I use Wilson, and size to fit the gauge. Problem solved.

 

[Pirate69]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the constructive comments and suggestions. They have been very beneficial to correcting the problem. And, it looks like at this time, I am back in the game.

I took ten of the cases that were giving me the sticking problem, cleaned them, and resized the necks approximately 75%. The problem showed up when I wanted to collet die resized. Not doing collet die sizing this time. Checked the resized cases in the rifle chamber and the bolt closed easy and they extracted without any effort.

Loaded the cases with 0.2 grains more powder that the load that was giving me the sticking problem. Wanted to make sure I have a good test. Fired the ten loads in two five-shot groups. The rounds loaded with only the slightest of pressure. A good chamber fit. All ten loads, after firing, extracted with one finger pressure after the bolt was lifted. Could not have asked for better results.

Prior to firing the ten loads, I fired two rounds of Freedom Munitions 77 grain HPBT cartridges. The bolt closed on the two rounds without any resistance at all. Not a tight fit. Side note: I am not knowledgeable of the quality of Freedom Munitions ammo, but I can comment on two rounds. The Garmin measured velocities differencing by 2.6 fps (2755.3 and 2752.7). The two-shot group had a center to center of 0.28 inches. Seems pretty good to me. Anyway, no problems with chambering or extraction.

I think, based on my apparently tight 223 chamber, the collet die resizing may still be a problem. I think I am on the very edge of a problem at best. I will now try some loads with collet die sizing and see if the problem reappears. Regardless, a small base resizing die is on the way.

Tried to capture as much dimensional data on loaded and fired rounds as possible. I had only planned to fire one FM round so I do not have data for the 2nd loaded FM round. I was a little surprised by the fired case lengths of cases one and two. I thought I had recently verified the case lengths of all the cases I am using. I need to deprime these two cases and remeasure. I may be reading a little bit of the primer. Data are presented in two ways to assist in comparing results.

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions.

9/4/2025	#1 Free. Muni. Loaded	#1 Free. Muni. Fired	#2 Free. Muni. Loaded	#2 Free. Muni. Fired	Case 1 Loaded	Case 1 Fired	Case 2 Loaded	Case 2 Fired
COAL	2.2350	1.7440		1.7470	2.3075	1.7800	2.3035	1.7720
Case Mouth O.D.	0.2440	0.2530	?	0.2540	0.2460	0.2535	0.2460	0.2530
Shoulder/Body	0.3525	0.3550	?	0.3550	0.3525	0.3550	0.3525	0.3550
Midway Body	0.3620	0.3665	?	0.3650	0.3620	0.3650	0.3610	0.3660
0.2" Line	0.3730	0.3735	?	0.3740	0.3750	0.3745	0.3745	0.3740
9/4/2025	#1 Free. Muni. Loaded	#2 Free. Muni. Loaded	Case 1 Loaded	Case 2 Loaded	#1 Free. Muni. Fired	#2 Free. Muni. Fired	Case 1 Fired	Case 2 Fired
COAL	2.2350	?	2.3075	2.3035	1.7440	1.7470	1.7800	1.7720
Case Mouth O.D.	0.2440	?	0.2460	0.2460	0.2530	0.2540	0.2535	0.2530
Shoulder/Body	0.3525	?	0.3525	0.3525	0.3550	0.3550	0.3550	0.3550
Midway Body	0.3620	?	0.3620	0.3610	0.3665	0.3650	0.3650	0.3660
0.2" Line	0.3730	?	0.3750	0.3745	0.3735	0.3740	0.3745	0.3740

Note: I can only read caliper dial to three decimal places. If the reading was clearing between marks, it was estimated to the fourth decimal place.