Collet Vs. Bushing

[ThadJB]

I have a Browning 222 Rem. I recently purchased, new. It shoots better then I do, as most firearms do.) Now I'm a huge fan of Redding dies and I enjoy reloading. Okay, onto the question. Which reloading method is better? Collet or Bushing and is there a method to hit both the O.D. and I.D. of the case mouth at the same time..... Catshooter, I fully expect you to weigh in on this one

 

[CatShooter]

I have a Browning 222 Rem. I recently purchased, new. It shoots better then I do, as most firearms do.) Now I'm a huge fan of Redding dies and I enjoy reloading. Okay, onto the question. Which reloading method is better? Collet or Bushing and is there a method to hit both the O.D. and I.D. of the case mouth at the same time..... Catshooter, I fully expect you to weigh in on this one

You rang

I'm not a fan of "Collet dies", so I'll leave this comparison alone.

I pick the bushing that gives me the finished neck diameter that I want.

If neck expanding is necessary, I use Lyman "M" dies to iron out neck dents, like in a bunch of new bulk cases.

Someone else will have to chime in on the collet dies....


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[6BRonwheels]

Hello Thad,
If price is no a big issue, I think the bushing dies are better. I have used both types of dies, the bushing dies, and the Lee collet dies. The collet dies work both the outside and inside of the necks, but as Catshooter pointed out, unless you have dented or out-of-round necks you only need to worry about the outside. It is also much easier to adjust the neck tension with the bushing dies. You can remove material from the mandrel of the collet die to adjust neck tension, but that can be a bit tricky.
Good Luck,
Jack

 

[ThadJB]

I pick the bushing that gives me the finished neck diameter that I want.

If neck expanding is necessary, I use Lyman "M" dies to iron out neck dents, like in a bunch of new bulk cases.

So, CatShooter, how do you choose the neck size you want??

And, when you talk about bulk brass.... You mean like the 221 FB ? :thumb:

 

[billmo]

Thad, years ago I used the Lee collet dies and was content until I found out about Redding bushing dies. I don't think I would ever go back to the collet die. It simplifies the process of getting .002 or less neck tension by swapping out a bushing. This is determined by measuring your loaded round neck diameter and then ordering a .002 smaller bushing. Most of the time I will get,3) bushings. One .001 smaller and one .001 larger than whatever it works out to be. I hope this helps. Bill

 

[ThadJB]

I hope this helps. Bill

Every bit does help and all replies are always greatly appreciated. For those who have enough concern to take the time to reply constructively, then my thanks goes out to them.

 

[CatShooter]

I pick the bushing that gives me the finished neck diameter that I want.

If neck expanding is necessary, I use Lyman "M" dies to iron out neck dents, like in a bunch of new bulk cases.

So, CatShooter, how do you choose the neck size you want??

And, when you talk about bulk brass.... You mean like the 221 FB ? :thumb:

"... And, when you talk about bulk brass.... You mean like the 221 FB ?"

When you talk about bulk .221 FireBall, you're talkin' about THREE PIECES!

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On choosin' the right bushing size... this is both not as easy as some would say, and not as critical as the anal compulsives would say.

The Bushing dies first came out to cater to the tight neck crowd. So in the tight neck, if there is 0.001" total clearance, then, for the most part, sizing down 0.002" is enough to get the case to hold the bullet, so it won't "fall out". The BR cartridge only needed to survive the trip from the bench to the chamber. Also, remember that many seat the bullet too long, and let the chambering do the final seating.

So, in the beginning, the rule was 1 or 2 thou smaller than the loaded neck diameter.

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But then the anal compulsives got a hold of it, and they say you can "control neck tension" with the bushings... that's BS.

Brass is not precise enough to get that kind of control. If you anneal 100 cases, and then size them with a bushing die, then measure the force generated in seating the bullets, you will find that it varies from case to case. I have been through this over and over... including pulling out the harder cases, and re-annealing them. No deal :,

But the other side is that it takes a couple of hundred pounds to start a bullet into the rifling, so a few ounces difference gets lost in the process.

You can use a bushing that is 2 thou or 3 or 4 thou under loaded neck dia - it'll be fine. You should anneal cases every "X" number of firings.

"X" is determined by the thickness of the neck wall in microns, divided by your personal "AQ" number.

,AQ is your "Anal Quotient" number )... or every 5 or 8 or 10 or so firings, if you are not anal.

In picking a bushing size if you are not shooting a tight or "no turn" neck,you're shooting a "factory" chamber) remember that the neck can wind up SMALLER than the bushing size, and the right bushing might wind up being larger than the loaded neck diameter,I know that doesn't make sense, but trust me on this one - I have the tee shirt)...
... so you might wind up with a few bushings as you go through some trial and error.


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[billmo]

Catshooter, you are right on the money. I have 5 or 6 bushings for some of my factory "unturned necks" due to working thru the process and finally winding up realizing that your last paragraph
is what has normally happened with my dies. There is a statement on Redding's web-site concerning this in their section on die bushing choices. So, Thad try to read thru all that has been said and it will all come thru for you given a little time and experience. Try to keep this one thought in the front. Your chamber neck area plus the amount of springback due to the brass thickness and elasticity and your brass prep procedures will win when it comes to deciding the proper bushing. I certainly hope I have not cluttered you mind. Catshooter will set me straight if I have. Bill

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter, you are right on the money. I have 5 or 6 bushings for some of my factory "unturned necks" due to working thru the process and finally winding up realizing that your last paragraph is what has normally happened with my dies. There is a statement on Redding's web-site concerning this in their section on die bushing choices.

That statement on the Redding website, and in the Redding catalogue was put there about 4 or 5 years ago, after I had a long,30+ minutes) talk with Patrick Ryan about this.

I had just built a 300 WM 1,000 yd riffle that was beautiful, it has a minimum body chamber, but with a SAAMI neck.

When I did the 4 thou under bushing, the neck was so small that the bushing was loose and wobbled on the sized neck,?????).

I thought, "Self, how can that happen?", and I dug out some old dusty metallurgy books. It comes from "overshoot". The neck slides down the feed ramp on the bushing face, and "keeps on going" past the diameter, then straightens out because there is no support for it anymore.

It doesn't hurt anything... it's just weird to use a .342 bushing to get a sized .334 case neck, which comes up to .338 when loaded.

At first Patrick didn't believe me. So he went and tried it, and called me back - the following year, it was in the catalog.

I tell this to guys and they still don't believe it.

I certainly hope I have not cluttered you mind. Catshooter will set me straight if I have. Bill

HA! - it's impossible to set you straight


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[ThadJB]

Wow! The more I learn, the more I realize what little I know.:crazy: So, where do I start

 

[billmo]

Thad, Catshooter did not just fall off the watermelon truck. I have learned many lessons from him in a fairly short period. He says he cannot set me straight but I doubt if he really has a clue as to how much he has helped me and a lot of others on this forum I'm sure. Bill

 

[CatShooter]

"... I doubt if he really has a clue as to how much he has helped me and a lot of others on this forum I'm sure." Bill

Naw... I just piss people off alla time

I got the "Mod" upset a little while back when I talked about shooting oiled cases when fireforming - he went and deleted the post :,

Some old crap just keeps going around and around.


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[DanConzo]

I like the Collet dies-I have many of both and almost always control the neck tension better with the collet dies. I use at least 3 or 4 mandrels for each die and don't have any problem turning them to a certain size. I polish the collet where it contacts the neck and use a regular lock ring. However if I turn the necks real close and anneal every couple times I can keep the neck tension good with bushing dies. If lee don't make a collet die for a certain case they will charge you about $50 for one. I've bought Redding S,bushing) dies cheaper.

 

[ThadJB]

Naw... I just piss people off alla time

I got the "Mod" upset a little while back when I talked about shooting oiled cases when fireforming - he went and deleted the post

Some old crap just keeps going around and around.

Never ask the question if you're afraid of the answer. I've had friends ask me to proof papers before they submit them. When it starts turning into an argument, I just remind them that they asked me. I think the same applies here. Are you going to tube your cat or open 'em up?? I do think though that next payday, I'll put in an order with Midway. Fur season is over, so I'll work on loading the perfect round using the perfect technique. It seems as though bushings are the way to go...at least for the time being. I'll do the testing on the willing participant rabbits and save the fur bearers for the cold months. Take care gents and thanks again for the input