.223 reloading session - strange numbers

[PopCharlie]

H335 is my favorite 223 powder.

I like n133 for light bullets and re15 for heavy bullets in my .223 bolt gun. My AR likes w748 and 55gr Nosler ballistic tips.

 

[pertnear]

If you want to try the "Windowed Mag" these guys sell 10 rnd mags ready to go. Just FYI...

https://www.cavitybackbullets.com/product-p/cb-pri-mod-mag.htm

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Try some AR-Comp. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Loudcherokee]

I think I've decided I will pull those 25.4 and 25.8 cases when I get home from work. I'm not afraid go fire the compressed loads, but for consistency sake I want all cases to have as close to the same jump to lands as the others so i can actually target a good load.

I've never pulled a rifle bullet before. I have a kinetic puller. Should I run the case back through the sizing die with the decapping pin removed so I get the neck tension back before loading them again?

LC

 

[Loudcherokee]

If memory serves me right the wylde chamber has a fairly tight throat diam. Are you sure you actually reached the lands?

I put the OAL gauge in as far as I could, and pushed with a pretty good amount of force to ensure I did. When I pushed the bullet up until the rod stop I tapped on it a few times to make sure it had a solid stop. The bullet came out with the case both times and was not stuck in the rifling.

LC

 

[Ned Ludd]

I put the OAL gauge in as far as I could, and pushed with a pretty good amount of force to ensure I did. When I pushed the bullet up until the rod stop I tapped on it a few times to make sure it had a solid stop. The bullet came out with the case both times and was not stuck in the rifling.

LC

FWIW - if you press too hard on the rod and push the bullet into the rifling, it is usually quite easy to feel the nose of the bullet stick and release as you nudge it back out with the cleaning rod. That is a clear indication you pushed too hard. A very light touch of the bullet to the lands is all it takes. Anything more and you're probably measuring bullets pushed at least a few thousandths (or more) into the lands.

Just out of curiosity, did you look down in the necks of the cases with 25.4+ gr of powder to see how far up in the case/neck it was? It sounds to me like you simply have run out of room in the case for that much powder, and it's causing your seating depth to become longer (and erratic) as you put more powder in the case. If you can see it up in the neck, or very close to that, it's likely that this is what is happening as others have suggested. You really want to get away from that, if possible, simply by choosing the next lower node, or by using a different powder.

I have experienced this problem before with IMR4895 and virgin Lapua brass. The charge weight necessary to hit a certain accuracy node was slightly more than could be fit into a virgin case without affecting bullet seating. However, once the brass had been fire-formed and re-sized, there was plenty of room to load that charge weight without disrupting bullet seating.

 

[Loudcherokee]

FWIW - if you press too hard on the rod and push the bullet into the rifling, it is usually quite easy to feel the nose of the bullet stick and release as you nudge it back out with the cleaning rod. That is a clear indication you pushed too hard. A very light touch of the bullet to the lands is all it takes. Anything more and you're probably measuring bullets pushed at least a few thousandths (or more) into the lands.

Just out of curiosity, did you look down in the necks of the cases with 25.4+ gr of powder to see how far up in the case/neck it was? It sounds to me like you simply have run out of room in the case for that much powder, and it's causing your seating depth to become longer (and erratic) as you put more powder in the case. If you can see it up in the neck, or very close to that, it's likely that this is what is happening as others have suggested. You really want to get away from that, if possible, simply by choosing the next lower node, or by using a different powder.

I have experienced this problem before with IMR4895 and virgin Lapua brass. The charge weight necessary to hit a certain accuracy node was slightly more than could be fit into a virgin case without affecting bullet seating. However, once the brass had been fire-formed and re-sized, there was plenty of room to load that charge weight without disrupting bullet seating.

Yes I did see powder all the way up to the shoulders and some of those last 8 charges at the base of the neck. I was wondering how that would work out and I guess I found out, haha. I was thinking there was no way I would fit those SMKs down in there, much less the ELD-Ms that are a foot long.

LC

 

[rsmithsr50]

why work with the worst bullets on the market?
just a waste of time and money.
typically made by the lowest bidder

Ahh the Joy's of 223 loading. I've been working last 4 range trips to find a load with 3031 and 55fmj and 62fmj bullets cause I have 16lbs of 3031 and 4k of the bullets. Also this is out of a bolt gun. I got this cz527 and I'm hoping I can find a load for it with these components. I'm gonna do a run with h335 next time just to see what happens and get back to the 3031 but I like to look for plinking loads 1st in my guns before I move up to fancier components. I have a Remington 700 milspec 5R in 308 that shoots PPU components bullets and brass really well and they cost significantly less than a lupua brassed Berger or Sierra MK especially when I'm just punching paper at the range

 

[rsmithsr50]

not smaller than the bullets.
it will fit a 80 sie, a 69 sie, and even 50's
just a poor choice for any rifle not shooting mil long range events( typically 200/300 600)

If memory serves me right the wylde chamber has a fairly tight throat diam. Are you sure you actually reached the lands?

 

[rsmithsr50]

typically loading manuals are based on COMMERCIAL cases, not MILITARY CASES.
while lc is close, it aint commercial. not surprised you are having issues.

Hey guys,

So I sat to reload some .223 today. I sorted all my Lake City brass into 3 groups, by weight. I chose the group with the smallest variance to use for these rounds, as this is load development for this rifle.

The rifle is an AR-15 chambered in .223 Wylde with a 20" 1/9 twist barrel. Using the hornady comparator and OAL tool, I measured the CBTO OAL to lands at 1.866. I've not shot the rifle yet, but got some 55g to break in the barrel with before I shoot these rounds.

I started at 23.4g varget, and loaded 4 rounds each up to 25.8g. 26g is listed as max for the 69g Sierra Match King HPBT bullets, and is a compressed load. 25.8 is also compressed it seems, and 25.4 feels slightly compressed as well.

I'm using the Forster benchrest micrometer seating die. Trying to seat a max OAL of 2.250 for mag length, it seems I have some variances and I'm not sure where to start. There were a couple of rounds that I could see a visible burr on the top, and I lightly filed this to remove the burr.

Please see the picture attached. I have a COAL variance from 2.244 all the way up to 2.264, up to .020 difference. A CBTO variance of 1.848 up to 1.865, up to a .017 difference.

Note that my OAL to lands is only 1.866 so that CBTO of 1.865 is only a .001 jump. Since this is load development I would like to have these all as consistent as possible.

With the compressed load, is it going to be possible to crunch these down to get to a consistent jump and under max mag length?

LC

 

[ppaul]

not smaller than the bullets.
it will fit a 80 sie, a 69 sie, and even 50's
just a poor choice for any rifle not shooting mil long range events( typically 200/300 600)

No, it's not smaller than a bullet but if there's a small burr or other imperfection or just a sharp transition from neck to throat a bullet can hang up and give you a false measurement with the hornady tool.

 

[Loudcherokee]

So I went back and pulled the charges from 25.4 and 25.8 and reloaded them at 24.4 and 24.8. This gives me charge weights at 24.2, 24.4, 24.6, 24.8, and 25.00.

I also re-seated the other cases to give me a CBTO of 1.852-1.853 on all rounds except the first 2.

We shall see how it goes if I ever get a chance to get to the range.

LC

 

[grovey]

no it is very loooong throat if it is a wylde chamber.

With that bto # ? BS...

 

[grovey]

So I went back and pulled the charges from 25.4 and 25.8 and reloaded them at 24.4 and 24.8. This gives me charge weights at 24.2, 24.4, 24.6, 24.8, and 25.00.

I also re-seated the other cases to give me a CBTO of 1.852-1.853 on all rounds except the first 2.

We shall see how it goes if I ever get a chance to get to the range.

LC

Compressing powder is just a part of the game. I'd wager to say 9 out 10 guys shooting short range benchrest are shooting a compressed load. That number may be a bit on the low side though.

 

[rckendall]

I have been preparing to test the same components in an ar-15. I found the two pages linked below to be helpful, but not exactly cut and dried. The thing that stood out to me was that Sierra found 25.3 gn to have the best accuracy. I too have been compressing some of the heavier charges, but I certainly will try to include a few in the 25.3 gn area.

I worked up a load a couple years ago for a 223 bolt gun using the same components. After getting some good results I decided to try a different powder that would meter better so I could just drop charges from a powder measure. I tried IMR 8208 and I got much better groups, consistently, and found that there was a range of 0.1 gn either side of ideal that gave the same results. I was very pleased and encouraged with my work/testing. Good luck.

Richard

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

 

[rsmithsr50]

then it is not a wylde chamber.
it is designed to hanfle an sie 80 at about 2.45
else it aint a wylde.
its a long tapered throat it still shoots 68/69/75/77 very well at mag length.

With that bto # ? BS...

 

[Loudcherokee]

I have been preparing to test the same components in an ar-15. I found the two pages linked below to be helpful, but not exactly cut and dried. The thing that stood out to me was that Sierra found 25.3 gn to have the best accuracy. I too have been compressing some of the heavier charges, but I certainly will try to include a few in the 25.3 gn area.

I worked up a load a couple years ago for a 223 bolt gun using the same components. After getting some good results I decided to try a different powder that would meter better so I could just drop charges from a powder measure. I tried IMR 8208 and I got much better groups, consistently, and found that there was a range of 0.1 gn either side of ideal that gave the same results. I was very pleased and encouraged with my work/testing. Good luck.

Richard

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Appreciate the links. Did you notice the picture of the target shot 69g hpbt with 24.1g of varget? I've got some loaded at 24.2. Hoping for great results.

LC

 

[Bojo]

I've shot quite a bit of military brass through the last 12 years or so. When shooting that milspec brass and looking to separate it you should try to separate it by date first and then into weight groups.
Way too much variation in that stuff from year to year manufacturing.

 

[tomswede]

Don’t over complicate things. This is an AR. 69 grain bullets are designed to be jump tolerant ( and the Wylde chamber with them). Load to mag length. There are a lot of sources for data to this platform/chamber. It’s not a BR rifle. LC brass is good and will do the job fine.
Choose the right tool for the job.

 

[Old Navy]

Is that BTO your base to ogive measurement? How are they longer than your chamber length? Are you jamming the lands?

LC

Those are base to ogive numbers. I shoot 77 and smaller out of the mag. The bigger are loaded long and fired single shot. My barrel really likes the 80.5. I have shot it out to 800. Best five shot 6.155" all horizontial. BTO was .1.995".