.223 RCBS FULL LENGTH SIZING DIE?

[anschuter2013]

Hi Folks

I have an RCBS Full Length sizing die (non bushing type) for .223 that is causing a few issues. I would like to know if anyone else has One that could check a few numbers on sized brass so I can determine if what I have is "normal"?

The first issue is that the die sizes the neck OD to .238" before the expander mandrel expands on the extraction stroke. To me, that is seriously and un-necessarily overworking the brass. I have already experienced split necks on brass that only has 4 firings on them. I don't find that acceptable at all.

The second issue is that the expander mandrel only opens the neck ID to .215" on the extraction stroke. That is resulting in ridiculous neck tension of .009" on diameter. I have written in my notes that I'm wondering why when seating bullets that Sierra 69gr. BTHP and Berger 52gr. FB bullet ogives are being dented and damaged by the seating stem during seating. It seems obvious based on the numbers, but I would appreciate any input from the forum.

If anyone has an RCBS Full Length size die in .223 (non bushing type), can you verify my numbers to yours and let me know if the die I have is the norm?

 

[William Vogel]

The one I have compresses the neck to .237 or .238 and the expander ball is a .222 or .223 diameter. I bought a bushing die because I split a few necks also.

 

[TheCZKid]

In my experience my RCBS .223 sizing die went way too for compressing the necks to too small a diameter, but my expander ball opens the necks to .221" ID. If you're having a lot of tension, I'm curious if your necks are getting work hardened from sizing, and you might want to anneal the necks and shoulders. That should make them softer and a lot easier to expand and to seat bullets.

I ended up switching my .223 to Forster dies. I like their Ultra micrometer seating die, really big dial and easy to read.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

https://www.brownells.com/reloading...ping-tools/die-decapping-units/?sku=749001833
RCBS may have made a mistake on the expander button size, and there have been older threads on reaming out dies to make the neck sizing larger.
The link above on the Forster stem will work in your die and the high expander ball will make your cases more concentric.

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

As William says, both my Redding and RCBS sizers shrink the necks to the .238/.239 range. My antique RCBS small base sizer sizes to .241.

Frank

 

[rebs]

My Redding bushing die sizes the neck to .248 and when a bullet is seated it is .250 for .002 neck tension

 

[anschuter2013]

All good information, thanks to all that responded.

I would prefer a full length non bushing type die because the application is for a gas gun. Generally, there is a portion of the neck to shoulder junction that doesn't get resized. That's fine for a bolt gun, not entirely sure if that will cause chambering issues in a gas gun though.

I guess I need to call a few manufacturers and ask them exactly what diameter their full length non bushing type dies size to. Or, just call Forster and order from them directly and state what I need.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

My RCBS standard FL sizes brass to 0.242-0.2425 no expander. The expander is .222, however I don't use it, I mandrel to size necks for bullet seating. The mandrel is .222. I use Hornady one shot on die body, case and mandrel. I mostly use once fired range brass from carbine classes, in 2 bolt guns and 2 gas guns. All 223 is sized to fit my Lyman ammo checker. I need sub 1" groups from all the rifles. Most of my shooting is prairie dogs and hunting fur.

 

[K22]

My RCBS FL die is over 50 years old, and I have loaded literally thousands of 223 Rems with it. Since my die is so old, I am not sure the dimensions would be any value to you. Depending on the rifle, brand of cases, and age of cases, I get about .006 sizing on the neck (outside diameter), i.e., about .250 to .244.; that is a case as fired, .250 then ran through the die and expander ball, .244. These dimensions do vary slightly.

I have some thoughts for your consideration:

First of all, the FL die / with expander ball should not create so much neck tension that you cannot seat the bullet without deforming it. Also, neck splits after four firings are not normal in my experience. I typically get 15 - 18 sizing's and firings before neck splits start to show and that is without annealing.

My factory unmodified expander ball is .222. However, if you notice considerable drag on the neck this needs to be corrected. I do not turn necks, instead, I have 4 expander ball assemblies sized from .219 to .222 to accommodate different brands of cases / ages of cases / different rifles. The balls are polished with emery cloth to a "glass like" finish. I use the balls to uniform the necks and provide a consistent neck tension without over working the necks. I probably use the .220 for most rifles and brand of cases.

I typically get more neck tension that guys using bushing dies, but as long as it is consistent, the bullets seat without issue, and I do not have excessive neck splits it works for me. I have been able to develop accurate varmint hunting reloads (1/2 to 5/8 moa) using a standard FL die with these modified expander balls. I've been doing this way for a very long time.

For ultimate accuracy however, bushing dies, annealing, mandrels are all worth considering. I do not believe you will find any benchrest or long-range shooters using standard FL dies these days. However, for me, my system work for the level of precision I need. Plus, I want to keep the reloading process as simple as possible.

 

[anschuter2013]

My RCBS FL die is over 50 years old, and I have loaded literally thousands of 223 Rems with it. Since my die is so old, I am not sure the dimensions would be any value to you. Depending on the rifle, brand of cases, and age of cases, I get about .006 sizing on the neck (outside diameter), i.e., about .250 to .244.; that is a case as fired, .250 then ran through the die and expander ball, .244. These dimensions do vary slightly.

That's great info, K22. That sounds more like what I'm looking for but am not getting with the die I have.

The only thing this "die" is doing is killing my brass...

 

[K22]

That's great info, K22. That sounds more like what I'm looking for but am not getting with the die I have.

The only thing this "die" is doing is killing my brass...

It shouldn't - the die might be defective. I've always had good experiences with RCBS customer service. Call them and give them the details. It does appear that you FL die is sizing the necks down way too much. See what RCBS says.

I have no trouble at all seating bullets, and my cases, as I said, last quite while even without annealing.

Factory expander balls are notoriously oversized and often create a lot of drag on the neck, stretching and over working it.

In addition to the polished and re-sized expander balls, I brush the necks with an oversize nylon brush chucked into a low RPM drill before sizing. It only takes a few minutes and removed the excess carbon residue inside the neck and reduces drag on the necks. Lubing the inside of the necks also helps although I have not had to do that with the polished expander balls.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

All good information, thanks to all that responded.

I would prefer a full length non bushing type die because the application is for a gas gun. Generally, there is a portion of the neck to shoulder junction that doesn't get resized. That's fine for a bolt gun, not entirely sure if that will cause chambering issues in a gas gun though.

I guess I need to call a few manufacturers and ask them exactly what diameter their full length non bushing type dies size to. Or, just call Forster and order from them directly and state what I need.

I took the guts out of my Redding series A die today out of curiosity.
It was taking a fired .2525 od neck down to .2385, so .014 reduction. I put my Forster stem back in it and it opened neck back to .248 od. Loaded 69SMK is .2495 od.

 

[searcher]

I use bushing dues to load for all of my semi-auto AR-stye rifles in .20 p, 6.5 Grendel, .223, etc. If I were loading “blasting ammo” for plinking and such, I’d have no problem using a non-bushing sizing die. I’d alter the sizing button/hall for proper diameter and function-and not crimp.

That said, I turn the necks on all my AR brass and find I get the best accuracy when I apply no more neck tension than is needed to stop the bullet from moving in the case when loading into the chamber. How many .000’s depends on the length of bullet and and caliber. For example, a 40 Grain.223 bullet might require maybe .005” to .006” of tension, whereas a 55 grain will require .004” to .005”, tops. If moly bullets, add another .001”, etc. most full-length dues have to be capable of providing enough tension to all brass, regardless of make- and you will just about always have way more neck tension than needed.

As you have about .002” or more in unwanted extra tension, if you have a case neck turning tool, I’d take between .001” and .002” off the neck. That way, you end up with close to the tension you probably want without buying another die- and don’t overwork the brass as much as you are now. An added plus will likely be a bit of an accuracy gain- due to lower tension, along with more uniform bullet release.

These are all the problems that ultimately lead most of us to bushing dies- and they do just fine in the gas guns. I prefer the Redding for my AR’s

 

[Ken6PPC]

I use bushing dues to load for all of my semi-auto AR-stye rifles in .20 p, 6.5 Grendel, .223, etc. If I were loading “blasting ammo” for plinking and such, I’d have no problem using a non-bushing sizing die. I’d alter the sizing button/hall for proper diameter and function-and not crimp.

That said, I turn the necks on all my AR brass and find I get the best accuracy when I apply no more neck tension than is needed to stop the bullet from moving in the case when loading into the chamber. How many .000’s depends on the length of bullet and and caliber. For example, a 40 Grain.223 bullet might require maybe .005” to .006” of tension, whereas a 55 grain will require .004” to .005”, tops. If moly bullets, add another .001”, etc. most full-length dues have to be capable of providing enough tension to all brass, regardless of make- and you will just about always have way more neck tension than needed.

As you have about .002” or more in unwanted extra tension, if you have a case neck turning tool, I’d take between .001” and .002” off the neck. That way, you end up with close to the tension you probably want without buying another die- and don’t overwork the brass as much as you are now. An added plus will likely be a bit of an accuracy gain- due to lower tension, along with more uniform bullet release.

These are all the problems that ultimately lead most of us to bushing dies- and they do just fine in the gas guns. I prefer the Redding for my AR’s

I know of one situation where a .223 Redding bushing die doesn't work very well for loading for an AR at magazine length.

I have found it is common for the pressure ring of my bullets to be seated below the sized portion of the neck. Then, the neck has little to NO tension left, and the bullet will slide in and out of the case neck.

This problem can also come up with taper shanked bullets. Of course, it ISN'T much of a problem if you use boatail bullets or the bullets you use do not have a pressure ring at the base.