223 primer question ?

[450BM]

I care about groups first and worry about SD/ES if the groups are bad. 1/4” inch groups, yeah, I have my load….

With that said, I love testing different components but it’s just my curiosity and my enjoyment so I’d be trying stuff.

 

[karrarararararar]

Chasing ES with 223 is a tall challenge--Smile at the good groups--ignore the ES
53 Vmax is a great bullet--excellent choice--it does buck the wind better than other bullets in that weight class for sure
FWIW with 223 / 53g Vmax N133 powder has done best for me and tightened up that ES and was not primer sensitive
Good luck looks like Fun!

Exactly. At the end of the day it is still a 223 and likely isn't going to have velocities as tight as other cartridges.

 

[Doom]

I drug out my 223 today hoping to come up with a good load for the 53vmax. The rifle is a model 12, laminated stock that’s been bedded with a 26” Wilson 8 twist barrel. I did some research and decided on imr 3031 with rem. 7 1/2 primers so I can save my 450s. Did a rough seating dept test with a mild charge starting from .010 off, in .010 increments to .050 off That’s 5 three shot groups. Now the good stuff: .010, .020, and .030 off were all on the same spot on the targets and neither measured over 1/4”. My es wasn’t all that great for none of the groups although I carefully weighed each charge. The brass was some previous used in same chamber Winchester. If I was to change the primer to attempt to tighten up my es how high is the chances will it throw my groups for a loop ?

Just what was was your expectations for ES?

 

[NZ_Fclass]

A vote requesting you post the results.

Will do

 

[DLT]

Just what was was your expectations for ES?

No expectations at all. Hoping for the best. Not that much experience with a chronograph of my own. I try and keep my stuff less than 20-25 fps On finished loads

 

[KMW 1954]

Now the good stuff: .010, .020, and .030 off were all on the same spot on the targets and neither measured over 1/4”. My es wasn’t all that great for none of the groups although I carefully weighed each charge. The brass was some previous used in same chamber Winchester. If I was to change the primer to attempt to tighten up my es how high is the chances will it throw my groups for a loop ?

If that is 1/4" @100yds I'd be calling that Most excellent!

For the 223 throw ES/SD out the window. I shot a 223 in a target league for 3 years and I near drove myself nuts chasing numbers. Was finally convinced to "trust the target"! You can change primers and powders all you want it won't change.

 

[mikecr]

If I was to change the primer to attempt to tighten up my es how high is the chances will it throw my groups for a loop ?

The only testing you reported was seating, and primers/powder are independent of seating.
But changing the burning of your powder will likely change the charge result. This result being lower than seating results,, I predict your grouping will open a little until powder is counter-adjusted (not much).

 

[DLT]

The only testing you reported was seating, and primers/powder are independent of seating.
But changing the burning of your powder will likely change the charge result. This result being lower than seating results,, I predict your grouping will open a little until powder is counter-adjusted (not much).

If I roll on with the 7 1/2 primer and go on up in charge weight, the seating depth sweet spot shouldn’t change much at all correct ?

 

[Doom]

No expectations at all. Hoping for the best. Not that much experience with a chronograph of my own. I try and keep my stuff less than 20-25 fps On finished loads

If you are using 3 shot groups and looking at spreads of 20-25 fps you are going to find that the real spread is going to be quite a bit higher than that. @KMW 1954's experience is pretty much spot on.

If your 1/4" groups are at 100yds you can ignore trying to equate individual shot placement with velocity because the other effects are on the same order as velocity at that distance. A 100 fps velocity change is going to move the point of impact about 1/4" at that distance. The 223 is a hard cartridge to get low SD/ES. Variations in powder charge have have about double the affect that they would in a 308 or 6.5CM. It is also a short neck cartridge so neck tension variance has a greater effect along with case length. Primer effects can be greater in the small cartridge than they would be in a larger cartridge. If your sample sizes were larger I can pretty much be you will see the SD and ES grow from what you are looking at with 3 shot groups. A good ES/SD for a 20 to 30 shot samples is going to average around 10 fps and a ES around 50 fps on average. That is with Lapua or similar brass.

Now to the original question. If you change primers it may affect your groups. Only one way to tell. But I doubt you will find it improve it enough draw any definitive conclusions.

Your choice of powder is on the slow side. I shoot 52 Berger and 53 Sierra out of a 26" factory Remington at 3250-3300 fps with no pressure signs with IMR 8208 XBR and VV N135.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

buy yourself the proper powder, n133,

3,600 with 53 vmax in my factory rem 700 barreled action.

i have shot some groups with that gun that shouldnt be possible in a factory gun (6 shots under an inch at 550 yards)

 

[Doom]

buy yourself the proper powder, n133,

3,600 with 53 vmax in my factory rem 700 barreled action.

i have shot some groups with that gun that shouldnt be possible in a factory gun (6 shots under an inch at 550 yards)

If that is directed at me the N135 is a perfect powder for the 53 gr and gives about 100% case fill and it also works well in 308 and in M1 Garands. Not that there is anything wrong with N133.

But if you are going to post a recommendation that a powder and bullet in a 223 will give near 22-250 velocities you should also mention that the load is over recommended maximum before sending an unsuspecting reloader off with the impression that is a save load.

 

[alf]

Did a rough seating dept test with a mild charge starting from .010 off, in .010 increments to .050 off That’s 5 three shot groups. Now the good stuff: .010, .020, and .030 off were all on the same spot on the targets and neither measured over 1/4”.

Curious why you didn't try in the lands?

I always start there, typically a square mark on the bullet, depending on land configuration.

 

[DLT]

If that is directed at me the N135 is a perfect powder for the 53 gr and gives about 100% case fill and it also works well in 308 and in M1 Garands. Not that there is anything wrong with N133.

But if you are going to post a recommendation that a powder and bullet in a 223 will give near 22-250 velocities you should also mention that the load is over recommended maximum before sending an unsuspecting reloader off with the impression that is a save load.

My book tops out at 3400 with any powder. 3600 is probably hot

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

If that is directed at me the N135 is a perfect powder for the 53 gr and gives about 100% case fill and it also works well in 308 and in M1 Garands. Not that there is anything wrong with N133.

But if you are going to post a recommendation that a powder and bullet in a 223 will give near 22-250 velocities you should also mention that the load is over recommended maximum before sending an unsuspecting reloader off with the impression that is a save load.

hard for me to recommend n135 (slower powder) when i am getting 100% case fill with n133.

oh there's no doubt its overpressure, but its nothing thats unsafe. I even had a few friends try my rounds out in their guns with no issues or pressure signs and were amazed at the velocity.

Not only do I get good speeds but I am getting very impressive es/sd numbers as well, cci 400 primers.

 

[DLT]

Curious why you didn't try in the lands?

I always start there, typically a square mark on the bullet, depending on land configuration.

This rifle has been throated. There isn’t much in the neck at .010 off. I have personally shot bullets jammed very few times.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

My book tops out at 3400 with any powder. 3600 is probably hot

load it to whatever you feel comfortable with, n133 is THE powder for 223 50-53 grain bullets

 

[jelenko]

oh there's no doubt its overpressure, but its nothing thats unsafe.

Dangerous statement. It's overpressure - could easily blow up in another rifle.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Dangerous statement. It's overpressure - could easily blow up in another rifle.

i suppose anything is possible with the right conditions

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Chasing ES with 223 is a tall challenge--Smile at the good groups--ignore the ES
53 Vmax is a great bullet--excellent choice--it does buck the wind better than other bullets in that weight class for sure
FWIW with 223 / 53g Vmax N133 powder has done best for me and tightened up that ES and was not primer sensitive
Good luck looks like Fun!

a stiff load of n133 for me and cci 400 primers gives me single digit sd's as well. took me forever to find a combo but thats what finally did it for me

 

[mikecr]

If I roll on with the 7 1/2 primer and go on up in charge weight, the seating depth sweet spot shouldn’t change much at all correct ?

That's correct