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223 high ES

Hi everyone hoping to get some help. im having some issues with high extreme spreads. For a 10 shot string I get around a 52 fps spread. My first three or four shots start out 2895 to 2905 the next shot is not consistent, either low fps or high (2868-2920 fps) and they don't increase in velocity as the string is fired. My last shot today had a velocity of 2886.

I used Erik cortina's method for finding my nodes.I have the same ES with my highest node of 25.1 gr of varget and next one down at 24.7. I have messed with my seating depth a little bit With no change. I neck size with a bushing die and have .0015 neck tension.

I'm sure you are wondering about rifle and load details so. I use this rifle for f-t/r, I'm shooting a rem xr-100 with a 1-8 twist 28" bartlein 5r. Varget, cci br-4's, 80 smk, and rem brass weight sorted and necks cleaned up.

I'm not sure what to do next, I'm thinking try different primers? Any input would be nice,Thanks in advance.

P.S. Just for a test, on my last shot of my second 10 shot string today I let it sit in the chamber for a couple of minutes my velocity was 2886.
 
If you have any rel15 or VV N140 to try,it may help.Varget is not always the best powder for every rifle. What seating depths have you tried? Maybe this bullet likes to be jumped,in some cases it works well or maybe a .010 jam could make the difference.I would back off your load a bit and start over.You are on the hot side and that isn't always the answer.
 
you might try stepping down to the 77gr. bullet. ive seen similar problems with the 80gr. bullets.
i would try the 77gr bullets and anneal if u havent already and also u might try. 002" neck tension
 
Are you getting vertical? My spreads are nothing to brag about but my vertical says otherwise. I have a cheap chrony, may be its inaccurate?
 
I've a bit of experience with the 223 for L/R work but I'm certainly not a know-it-all
IMHO, the 223 cartridge is more prone to larger ES/SD spreads than other cartridges. If you plan on shooting it at 1K, then those spreads will certainly take you out of the X ring...
The CCI br is a good primer but like any brand primer, that particular lot might not be working well for you...
Quickest check would be to swap to another primer and see what the chrony results are...if same results, than a move to a different powder is in order (obviously, if you have anything else suitable on hand in your reloading room...)
Keep us posted on your results!
Mark
 
IMHO, the 223 cartridge is more prone to larger ES/SD spreads than other cartridges. If you plan on shooting it at 1K, then those spreads will certainly take you out of the X ring...

Yes! ES values of 40-50 fps are not at all uncommon even with carefully loaded ammo.

The CCI br is a good primer but like any brand primer, that particular lot might not be working well for you...

When I shot 223 with 90s at long ranges using VarGet or Re15, I got much poorer results from the BR4 than its sister CCI-450 SRM, or best of all, the Russian Murom SRM, mine sold in Europe as PMC, better known in the US under the Wolf brand. My lot of BR4s were too hot for the cartridge giving ~40 fps higher MVs than the other two and more than doubling ES. Reducing powder charges to return to the 450 / PMC MVs didn't reduce ES values. (These same BR4s work very well in 6.5X47L and .308 Win / Palma brass with their much larger powder charges.)

Everything has to be perfect in .223 to use it at long range. I only used recent manufacture Lapua Match brass, gave the necks a light 'clean-up' turn and batched them by weight and neck thickness. Primer pockets don't need touching, but uniform flash-holes with a tool like the Sinclair reamer which cuts them slightly larger to 0.081". You meet the occasional case even with Lapua that has an undersize flash-hole and needs a lot more effort to ream it out. If you use Winchester brass, full preparation and batching is essential - necks, primer pockets, flash-holes including deburring the exit end, etc, etc.

I found with 90s in my chambers at any rate, that very light neck tension worked well, just enough to stop a carefully chambered round having the bullet pushed back into the case by the rifling. VLDs always worked best 0.015" or so 'in', tangent ogive bullets like the 80.5gn Berger Fullbore, 80gn SMK and 90gn Berger LRBT generally worked best the same amount 'out', but seating the SMK 'in' could usefully be tried to see what it does both for groups and ES. I found that I got my ideal neck tension using a Forster Bushing-Bump die with a bushing size that was 0.001" smaller than needed, followed by neck expansion using a Sinclair mandrel die and the company's E22 expander mandrel designed for neck-turning preparation, but giving me just the right amount of neck tension on the bullet. Lube the inside of the neck. Shoulders were bumped by 0.001-0.002", any more will not help your efforts.

Weighing charges to less than 0.1gn is important in .223 as gstaylorg says. With 90s, 0.1gn = 10 fps MV change, and it'll likely be a bit more with an 80. I did a lot of research a couple of years back on powder measures and also what sort of consistency I could get using my best efforts with the traditional measure + weighing / adjusting charges on a set of good beam scales (RCBS 10-10) and found that while most of a 50 charge run would be within 1.5gn, a few would take the spread out to nearly 3gn. The issue is your head / eye position looking at the scale beam prodiucing parallax changes. For LR ammo, I used an Acculab and worked to a single kernel of Varget or Re15, that is plus or minus 0.02gn. A beam scale with an automatic cut-off electric trickler can be very consistent. I love my RCBS Chargemaster, but scale drift over a session risks producing far too large charge-weight variations to use charges as thrown.

223 bullets, especially SMKs, used at extreme ranges benefit a lot from trimming followed by pointing. This produces both noticeable BC improvements and also reduction in elevations. ~5% BC improvement is easily obtained. I've not loaded the 80gn SMK in a long time, but most MKs exhibit a fair bit of variation in the base to ogive measurement (180gn 7mm MKs that I'm currently loading in .284 have a >0.005" range and need batching, that compares to around 0.002" for Berger 180gn VLDs out of the box), so measure and batch if needed using a comparator.

Don't use the 77gn SMK, or any other 77, for anything other than short-range matches. These bullets are wonderfully designed, but for a specific purpose - to be loaded to less than 2.26" COAL for magazine and semi-auto operation in High-Power Service Rifle tuned AR15s for the 200 and 300 yard stages. They're amazingly tolerant, accept huge jumps to the lands (as they must), but are relatively low BC having short, blunt nose sections. The 80gn SMK is no great shakes at 0.217 G7 BC, but the 77 is worse at 0.190. They compare to the Berger 80gn VLD at 0.228, 80gn Hornady A-Max with 0.231, and the recently introduced 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore with 0.234. A near 20% difference between 190 and 230 is a lot given that the 80s start to run out of steam beyond 600 yards compared to a good 155 in .308 Win, never mind a good 185 or 200.
 
the Rem brass may have a lot of variation in case capacity even though you weight sort them. Try working up loads in Laupa brass just to check to see if your ES will come down. You do have to start at a lower charge and work up. I use wolf or Tula SRM's with Varget, 80gr Sierra's in my 600 yd 223. I look at the target for vertical dispersion which is in the 3-4" range for 600yds.
 
Ok I finally have gotten a chance write something. Thanks for all the replys.

Laurie I have seen the variation In base to ogive with my 80 smk's, I have been sorting them. And since I am using this rifle for 600 yd F-T/R I don't want to shoot any less than than 80's either.

Also I am using a RCBS 750 charge master. I would like to try a gempro.

So here is my velocities, they were 12 shot strings actually not 10's.

The load i shot this string with is .003 less AOL ( to the ogive) than the next string.
2903
2895
2900
2915
2898
2901
2893
2868
2888
2906
2920
2886 - this is the load I let sit in the chamber for a couple of minutes.


To the best I can measure the load I shot this string with is just touching the lands

2905
2898
2906
2900
2898
2890
2901
2915
2920
2873

After putting these numbers on paper, maybe I should try going farther into the lands. What do you all think? Thanks again.

P.S. something I wanted to add. My vertical is about 3"-4" at 600 hundred also ecxept I loose 3-5 points (in the 9 ring) per string to vertical (low and high)
 
skip the 750 for weighing powder...a clean beam scale is much better, the gem pro250 is a bunch better and the 120 is best for the buck.

the 750 moves in steps..some where around .1...but that means 25.5 could be light at 25.4x+ and 25.5 could also be 25.5x+.....
x is completely at the mercy of the steps in your scale

you could easily have 25.4, 25.5 and 25.6 all in a row..the scale is plus or minus .1....

way too big for precision in a little case at long distance
 

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