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223 at 300 yards

Can I presume that you are already sorting bullets by weight~?

No, my loading process is far from what a lot of you top shooters are doing. I'm not sorting bullets or cases, not using mandrels, not annealing, using a simple RCBS partner press. I do use Redding FL bushing dies (.002" bump and .002" neck tension) and Forster ultra micrometer seaters. However I still have some serious issues seating bullets to a consistent measurement. Not sure if it's the stem, bullets, or my process. But I typically have to seat them all about .015" longer than what I need, and fine tune each one down to the depth I want. Otherwise I'll have at least a .010"-.015" variance from CBTO which is trash. So I take the initiative to at least make sure I'm getting +/- .001" on bullet seating. Powder is either weighed out individually on an RCBS balance beam, or the chargemaster lite.

I do have a 6mm Creed, but it's my coyote rifle. I just shoot the 223 a lot more to save on components and barrel life on the 6mm.

I've shot the same load at 100 for 10 shots and it did like .8" The first 6 went into a nice hole, not sure what happened to the last 3 of the 4 though. 7 ended up in 1 hole with the 3 odd balls opening it up. Seems the more number of shots, the bigger the group. 3 shots I can usually get 1/4-1/3 MOA, 5 shot typically 1/2 MOA, and 10 shot hair over 3/4 MOA. You can't expect 10 shot groups to be the same as 3 or 5 right? At least not in my experience.

Snapchat-487360521.jpg
 
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Not sure if you were using wind flags or not but as mentioned in prior posts flags will definitely help reduce your group, especially when the range increases. If the wind never drops to zero then try to fire all your shots when the wind conditions are the same (or close to it).
 
No, my loading process is far from what a lot of you top shooters are doing. I'm not sorting bullets or cases, not using mandrels, not annealing, using a simple RCBS partner press. I do use Redding FL bushing dies (.002" bump and .002" neck tension) and Forster ultra micrometer seaters. However I still have some serious issues seating bullets to a consistent measurement. Not sure if it's the stem, bullets, or my process. But I typically have to seat them all about .015" longer than what I need, and fine tune each one down to the depth I want. Otherwise I'll have at least a .010"-.015" variance from CBTO which is trash. So I take the initiative to at least make sure I'm getting +/- .001" on bullet seating. Powder is either weighed out individually on an RCBS balance beam, or the chargemaster lite.

I do have a 6mm Creed, but it's my coyote rifle. I just shoot the 223 a lot more to save on components and barrel life on the 6mm.

I've shot the same load at 100 for 10 shots and it did like .8" The first 6 went into a nice hole, not sure what happened to the last 3 of the 4 though. 7 ended up in 1 hole with the 3 odd balls opening it up. Seems the more number of shots, the bigger the group. 3 shots I can usually get 1/4-1/3 MOA, 5 shot typically 1/2 MOA, and 10 shot hair over 3/4 MOA. You can't expect 10 shot groups to be the same as 3 or 5 right? At least not in my experience.

View attachment 1658880
I'm far from being a "top shooter", BUT sometimes find a tiny step can make a substantial difference towards you goal. I'm quite meticulous with my loading with certain limits. I never load "hot" and I never anneal my brass. Irrespective of the availability of brass for my 6mm-PPC, I'm quite satisfied with 20+ re-loadings of a cartridge.
I"m not sure your problem is monumental or insurmountably, and I think that spending a few more minutes weighing and not spending a dime more for your reloading just might be the ticket to stardom. Give it a whirl and it might put a smile on your face. JMHO~!
 
No, my loading process is far from what a lot of you top shooters are doing. I'm not sorting bullets or cases, not using mandrels, not annealing, using a simple RCBS partner press.
I shot a Savage Model12 223 in a local 10 week league for 3 consecutive years. It was my first rifle and it was great fun and a great learning platform. I still believe it was a wise decision to start there. It made me a better shooter and a more knowledgeable reloader.

After shooting that rifle for the first year I made great progress in both aspects. Though I was still getting unexplained fliers. That is when it was presented to me to try and start annealing. I did, with a torch and a drill. Not the best or most consistent but by god it reduced my fliers greatly.

I also got rid of all my mixed headstamp brass and reduced it to just Norma and PMC, Lapua brass at the time was nonexistent.

My advice, don't be afraid to try other bullets.
 
The more shots in a group the bigger the group will be usually. Your group will not get any smaller by shooting more shots.
 
The ES\SD are not too far off what I get from .223, although it's usually for 20 to 30 shots. For samples of that many best I have gotten is 58 es and 15 sd. Thats all starline brass with vmax and cci 400, rem 7.5, fed match AR primers. N133, xterminator, and tac. I be weighing to the kernel too. Seems many people have trouble with 223 size case. I have not done too much testing to improve it. Thats just was I get. Next year plan to play with primers and seating depth see if I can improve it.

In comparison I have done nothing and no development for 6 creedmoor and its es 30 sd 12 in hornady brass, again 20+ shot samples.
 
I got relatively good ES/SD results from AR-COMP and a 55 gr. VMAX. Some of the groups weren't that great though.

5 groups: SDs 25, 9, 5, 8, 10.
 
No, my loading process is far from what a lot of you top shooters are doing. I'm not sorting bullets or cases, not using mandrels, not annealing, using a simple RCBS partner press. I do use Redding FL bushing dies (.002" bump and .002" neck tension) and Forster ultra micrometer seaters. However I still have some serious issues seating bullets to a consistent measurement. Not sure if it's the stem, bullets, or my process. But I typically have to seat them all about .015" longer than what I need, and fine tune each one down to the depth I want. Otherwise I'll have at least a .010"-.015" variance from CBTO which is trash. So I take the initiative to at least make sure I'm getting +/- .001" on bullet seating. Powder is either weighed out individually on an RCBS balance beam, or the chargemaster lite.

I do have a 6mm Creed, but it's my coyote rifle. I just shoot the 223 a lot more to save on components and barrel life on the 6mm.

I've shot the same load at 100 for 10 shots and it did like .8" The first 6 went into a nice hole, not sure what happened to the last 3 of the 4 though. 7 ended up in 1 hole with the 3 odd balls opening it up. Seems the more number of shots, the bigger the group. 3 shots I can usually get 1/4-1/3 MOA, 5 shot typically 1/2 MOA, and 10 shot hair over 3/4 MOA. You can't expect 10 shot groups to be the same as 3 or 5 right? At least not in my experience.

On group sizes - The reason smaller count groups are generally smaller is a shift in their center is allowed. The conflict with load development is by the time you reach a statistically significant shot count to characterize the random errors, systemic errors like barrel heating or fouling have set in. Shooter errors are more likely as well.

It's not a bench rest gun and it won't be used to shoot bench rest matches. The 75 ELDm gives a good combination of BC, quality for the price, price, and availability. Even with that gun shooting to its potential, which is probably in the half to 3/4 moa 5 shot group range, you're chasing wisps of smoke with tenth grain and 5 thousandths 3 shot steps. Leave that stuff to the real Bench Rest shooters. My load development process is pick a bullet for the task, use a decent primer, do a pressure ladder measuring extractor groove expansion with a powder that nearly fills the case but does not produce a compressed load. Depending on the results, I may test the next faster powder to see if higher velocity can be traded for lower velocity spread. No, the lowest velocity spread won't produce the smallest group, but bench rest velocity spreads are a lot better than they let on and there is a lot of overlap.

With that split group, I'd start with checking the bedding of both the action and scope. Maybe try another scope as well.

On the case prep, my ELR processes and tools have bled over into my 223 prep. I anneal now, but I've also tried not annealing and letting the cases go full hard. Not annealing can work well. It takes about 3 firings for the cases to go full hard. You'll need to adjust the sizing die to get the same bump with each of the hardnesses, but probably not after the third firing. Mark the die at the locking ring split for each hardness. I have the AMP, but also had good luck with the Benchsource. With any carousel annealer, use a scrap case at the start and end to prevent extra pre or post heating with the first and last cases. It's not a life or death thing, but the effort is low.

After an anneal and metal pin wet tumble, I full length resize with a one piece die and expand with a Lyman M die. I heavily lubricate the inside of the neck with Imperial before expanding. If the necks are not turned, the neck tension won't be consistent if they're only sized from the outside. I also think there is value in the springback being in the inward direction but couldn't prove it. After sizing, the ID and OD of the necks are chamfered, then the ID of the neck is honed using a cordless drill at full drilling speed with a bore brush that started 1 caliber up. The cases are cleaned neck down in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with 140 F water, a few drops of dish soap as an emulsifier, and a little Lemishine to control the pantina. The subtext on this is I'm trying for a medium low neck tension that is extremely consistent without neck turning. If you want to skip neck turning, moving the bullet away from the shoulder junction is a good strategy. It also adds significant volume to the 223 case with the longer bullets.

With seating VLD bullets, especially those with plastic tips, check to make sure the tip isn't bottoming in the seating stem. You can buy VLD seating stems for most dies, but they may not be enough for the ELDm nose. I modify the seating stems as required in a mill. If you don't have a machine shop in the garage, some bedding compound in the stem works. Hornady sells seating stems dedicated to each of their bullets for their dies. They still need to be cleaned up and detailed. After the bullet is seated, check for copper dust at the end of the case. If you find it, a heavier chamfer is needed next time. There shouldn't be any marks on the bullet with a properly detailed seater stem, modest neck tension, and uncompressed load.

I also have 2 guns for similar purposes. The 6 is a 6XC though. The idea was to have a second gun to shoot while the first cooled off. Different ballistics are considered a plus, but they're not as far apart as many think. The BC on the 75 ELDm is fully twice that of a 55 fmjbt. AB has the G7 at 0.238. The 6mm 108 ELDm I use in the 6XC is only 0.267.



They both have ~2500 rounds through them. The 6 is on its second barrel. The first 223 barrel will likely see the fourth 6mm barrel installed.
 
Good advice @ShaunBrady

I agree a 6mm is a good step for a new shooter, but I also think there is nothing wrong with starting and keeping a 223.

223 is a little more difficult to master at distances past 300 yards than a typical 6mm, but it is also a very economical cartridge to run and what rookies need to climb the learning curve is lots of stick time. Keeping a rookie supplied in components these days has been a challenge, and running a government surplus based cartridge has its advantages even if it isn't the highest performance.
 
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On group sizes - The reason smaller count groups are generally smaller is a shift in their center is allowed. The conflict with load development is by the time you reach a statistically significant shot count to characterize the random errors, systemic errors like barrel heating or fouling have set in. Shooter errors are more likely as well.

It's not a bench rest gun and it won't be used to shoot bench rest matches. The 75 ELDm gives a good combination of BC, quality for the price, price, and availability. Even with that gun shooting to its potential, which is probably in the half to 3/4 moa 5 shot group range, you're chasing wisps of smoke with tenth grain and 5 thousandths 3 shot steps. Leave that stuff to the real Bench Rest shooters. My load development process is pick a bullet for the task, use a decent primer, do a pressure ladder measuring extractor groove expansion with a powder that nearly fills the case but does not produce a compressed load. Depending on the results, I may test the next faster powder to see if higher velocity can be traded for lower velocity spread. No, the lowest velocity spread won't produce the smallest group, but bench rest velocity spreads are a lot better than they let on and there is a lot of overlap.

With that split group, I'd start with checking the bedding of both the action and scope. Maybe try another scope as well.

On the case prep, my ELR processes and tools have bled over into my 223 prep. I anneal now, but I've also tried not annealing and letting the cases go full hard. Not annealing can work well. It takes about 3 firings for the cases to go full hard. You'll need to adjust the sizing die to get the same bump with each of the hardnesses, but probably not after the third firing. Mark the die at the locking ring split for each hardness. I have the AMP, but also had good luck with the Benchsource. With any carousel annealer, use a scrap case at the start and end to prevent extra pre or post heating with the first and last cases. It's not a life or death thing, but the effort is low.

After an anneal and metal pin wet tumble, I full length resize with a one piece die and expand with a Lyman M die. I heavily lubricate the inside of the neck with Imperial before expanding. If the necks are not turned, the neck tension won't be consistent if they're only sized from the outside. I also think there is value in the springback being in the inward direction but couldn't prove it. After sizing, the ID and OD of the necks are chamfered, then the ID of the neck is honed using a cordless drill at full drilling speed with a bore brush that started 1 caliber up. The cases are cleaned neck down in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with 140 F water, a few drops of dish soap as an emulsifier, and a little Lemishine to control the pantina. The subtext on this is I'm trying for a medium low neck tension that is extremely consistent without neck turning. If you want to skip neck turning, moving the bullet away from the shoulder junction is a good strategy. It also adds significant volume to the 223 case with the longer bullets.

With seating VLD bullets, especially those with plastic tips, check to make sure the tip isn't bottoming in the seating stem. You can buy VLD seating stems for most dies, but they may not be enough for the ELDm nose. I modify the seating stems as required in a mill. If you don't have a machine shop in the garage, some bedding compound in the stem works. Hornady sells seating stems dedicated to each of their bullets for their dies. They still need to be cleaned up and detailed. After the bullet is seated, check for copper dust at the end of the case. If you find it, a heavier chamfer is needed next time. There shouldn't be any marks on the bullet with a properly detailed seater stem, modest neck tension, and uncompressed load.

I also have 2 guns for similar purposes. The 6 is a 6XC though. The idea was to have a second gun to shoot while the first cooled off. Different ballistics are considered a plus, but they're not as far apart as many think. The BC on the 75 ELDm is fully twice that of a 55 fmjbt. AB has the G7 at 0.238. The 6mm 108 ELDm I use in the 6XC is only 0.267.



They both have ~2500 rounds through them. The 6 is on its second barrel. The first 223 barrel will likely see the fourth 6mm barrel installed.
Nice rifles!
 
Good to go...but.. Why not N140? 540 is double based powder, so burns hotter. But hey - it's your gun.
Neck tension and choice of primer are the critical factors. 3 in @500 with a factory barrel is good going.
 
I'm confused about the 223 and 300 yard thing. Where does that come from?

Case, bullet, fps - 1000 yard drop, 10 mph drift, velocity at target

223, 55 fmjbt, 3240 - 23.3, 6.8, 887
223, 77 smk, 2750 - 13.1, 4.1, 991
223, 75 ELDm, 3000 - 8.3, 2.5, 1310
308, 175 smk, 2600 - 11.8, 3.1, 1090
6.5CM, 140 ELDm, 2710 - 9.2, 2.2, 1361
6 CM, 108 ELDm, 2960 - 7.9, 2.2, 1433

This is intended to be indicative, not shading your favorite. The 75 ELDm load is from my 26" barrel, the rest are 24" advertised values. With the extra COL and selection of higher capacity cases, it's not even to 556 pressure with an uncompressed single base powder. The point is a 223 loaded with 75 ELDm just doesn't have the limitations most assign to the 223. Another thread just popped up about the 75 ELDm in 223 and it looks like this isn't that uncommon.
 
Thank you for all that info. Definitely be applying some of it.

Ya, the difference between my 223/75g ELDM at 3000fps and my 6 CM/108g ELDM at 3000fps is not as much as most people would think. According to strelok the 6 CM only stays supersonic 150 more yards (1050 vs 1200) Slight edge in drift/drop to the 6mm. But the cost and barrel life is just significantly better on the 223 for trigger/range time.

So when just using the Redding FL bushing die, would you keep the decap/sizing rod in, or take it out and just decap separately prior?
 
I don't use expander balls. If you're going to use a bushing die, size the neck at least 0.004" under and bring it back to 0.002" with the mandrel. I prefer 1 piece sizers. It's just easier for me to make low runout brass with them.

I use a universal decapping die before cleaning. One die for everything except 223. The 223 version has the end ground to a smaller diameter to avoid crashes on the case mouth. I don't think decapping before cleaning is a key point. I do it to reduce the primer residue in the tumble water.

I had a simpler process 10-15 years ago. The cases were sized, trimmed, and expanded in a Dillon 650. After chamfering, they were charged using a pair of Hornady tricklers and the bullets seated with a single stage press. That was a 77 smk load using varget. I was loading them 500 at a time and the SDs were in the low to mid teens. I was happy they were much cheaper than factory loads and had better velocity spreads. H4350 6.5CM loads prepared the same way were easily below 10 fps on the SD.

At that time, I was shooting IDPA so I already had the Dillon. The 223 has always been a side challenge for me and the loading processes were influenced by the other things I had going.

The reason I used the 175 and 77 SMKs for the ballistics example is they were developed by the US military in the mid 90s specifically to address the transitioning issue. You don't want to be competing against near peers who are using supersonic loads, but there is no reason to stop at a certain distance with modern bullets. When selecting loads for competition, the supersonic thing makes a pretty good minimum rule of thumb. It's been stripped of all context and turned into an absolute limit that simply doesn't exist. I did a lot of my early ELR training with those 77 SMKs on a steel IDPA target at 1060 yards. The wheels fall off of everything eventually, but what is generally taken as transitioning better or worse is actually BC and Velocity variations. That was the point of the discussion on seating the bullets unmarked. It won't matter much with those loads out to 1000 yards, but it's easy to fix and a good habit to form. It'll also end your OAL frustrations. Concentricity under 0.003" is a second order effect and a done deal if the seater meets the bullet below the tip.
 
A lot of good advice.
But back to your original question.
If the rifle regularly shoots into 1/3 - 3/8 MOA at 100 yards, it can do the same at 300.
The larger MOA group you got at 300 is the result of wind, you or some coincidental equipment issue.
If it were me, I'd be back at 300 working on my wind reading. If/when I didn't get 1/3 - 3/8 MOA groups, I'd confirm/reconfirm at 100. As long as there isn't much wind at 100, shooting groups there can help sort out if you and/or your equipment are having issues. Then, back to 300.
 
That's only for 3 shot groups though.

I'm going to load up another batch and do some more shooting at 100 to take wind and some mirage out if it. I figure since this isn't a target rifle, I should probably limit it to 3-5 shot groups also. I was more curious than anything to just to see what a 10 would do.

Wouldn't think the scope is an issue, it's a S&B and seems to be working fine.

I don't think the stock is bedded, but I think it has pillars. Not exactly sure on that.
 

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