223 and Berger 85.5 LR Hybrid

[kyotekiller25]

Thinking about trying the Berger 85.5g LR Hybrid from my 223 Wylde with a 28" Bartlein 8 twist and N540. It also has .080" freebore, so about .020" longer than a standard Wylde chamber.

I've been playing with the 75g ELDMs and N540 and just not getting the consistent results I'm after, or think it should be shooting. For some reason I can't seem to shake the little flyers out of every load/group tested whether it's 100, 200, or 300 yards. I've ran the charge weights down to .1g increments and settled on 24.7 at 2950-2975fps, and just did a seating depth test today. The seating depth test didn't show anything worthwhile. I did 5 shot groups at 100 yards with 24.7gr N540 at 10, 15, and 20 off. They all shot 3/4" and all had 1 or 2 little flyers. Kind of annoying me already. I think they should easily be shooting 1/2 MOA after nailing down the powder charge and doing a few different seating depths. But it's not, so maybe it's just time to move on from the 75g ELDMs. My goal is consistent 1/2 MOA or better.

Was thinking of trying the 85.5g LR Hybrid for a couple reasons. 1 is the bullet profile/shape of the Hybrid design. Might be easier to tune then the VLD types. 2 is the .524 BC. The rifle is a 1K trainer so I don't want to give up too much BC/speed/ballistics that the 75g ELDM gives at 2975fps. I figure if I can get 2850fps from the 85.5s I won't give up anything ballistically, and actually gain 100 yards in overall range before transsonic stage over the 75g ELDM at 2975.

Anybody shoot the 85.5s in the 223 with good results? What powder and velocity?

I've got a decent supply of N540 and IMR 4895 for powders.

I'd like to have a bullet that shoots great, has a high BC, is readily available, and also will perform on coyotes all at the same time. Why I chose the 75g ELDM originally because it checks all those boxes.

Here was the 100 yard seating depth test I shot today. They all shot relatively the same. No better or worse with any of them. Should I just be ok with 5 shot 3/4 MOA or keep trying?



Here's the powder charge testing I did at 200 last week.

 

[Cfshooter]

The POI does not look very good and I would have switched powder or bullet right after that charge test. It just doesn’t look like the barrel likes that combo. Grab some 85’s and see how charge test looks, if no better, grab some 80.5’s.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

The POI does not look very good and I would have switched powder or bullet right after that charge test. It just doesn’t look like the barrel likes that combo. Grab some 85’s and see how charge test looks, if no better, grab some 80.5’s.

Absolutely! Time to start over with powder and bullet combinations. I would also look at the Sierras and Varget, and the ball powders, Staball Match and CFE223.

 

[stacy]

Get you a box of 75 gr Bergers and with that same powder charge it will be bugholes l have never got any of those Eldx any of them to shoot for me

 

[RAM2940]

I have read your other post so what brass are you using. My experience with starline 556 brass is the virgin brass was on the small size. The velocities were low. I was using a 80 eld with 24 grains of varget. After resizing 1 fired brass i had to go to 24.5 to get the best accuracy. also velocities increased by about 100 fps. Also give the berger 80.5 fullbore a try normally .5 and less groups. this has been my best so far. Rifle 26" PVA barrel 1/7 twist with 100 free bore.

 

[dstoenner]

I have run the 85.5 out of my bolt 223 out to 1000 yards on steel. My powder is Varget and my node on my 26 inch 1:7 is 2754.

That was too low for me to consider running this bullet in 1000 yard fclass but would be fine at 600. I switched to 22br for my 1000 yard gun. So far 90 Atips are going to be my sweet spot

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Will an 8 twist handle the 85.5 grain bullet?

Frank

 

[DLT]

Will an 8 twist handle the 85.5 grain bullet?

Frank

I highly doubt it. I never got the 75 eldm bullets to fly right out of my 8 twist. 77s and 80 smk hum

 

[Tireguy]

Having shot N540 for a very, very long time....just a few observations.
~ N540 played best with CCI-450 primers
~ Depending on which case your using, your load is light.
~ Your groups are classic N540 groups....historically when I had groups like that, I had to go with a higher charge.
~ If you choose to go with a higher charge, you will find that node where all of the sudden the groups will just shrink to a tight knot.
~ Case life will be reduced when you find that node.
~ N540 is temp sensitive so if you live in the south, watch out with running a winter load in the summer.

* Also having shot a lot of the 85.5s, you would have to push the 85s really fast to work in a 8T barrel. You would really want a 7T. I wouldn't spend the money. Just pick up some Berger 80s and go rock it!

 

[CharlieNC]

I couldn't get the 85.5 to shoot well in my 7twist ftr rifle, it bats about 50% within my shooting group. The Berger 80.5 shoots great for everyone, but not as attractive bc which is the allure for many.

 

[jepp2]

Will an 8 twist handle the 85.5 grain bullet?

The Berger stability calculator says no.

 

[kyotekiller25]

So I am using virgin Lapua brass as of right now. Starline was put to the backseat once I acquired the Lapua.

I also did some ladders with H4895/IMR4895/Benchmark/IMR8208XBR. But N540 showed the best promise, followed by H4895, which I only have 1# of. Which is also why I went with N540 because I got 5# of it.

I ran the N540 up to 25.6 at 3085fps, but pierced a primer there. That was before I had my bolt bushed. It seemed to have a node at the 3050 range, but I kinda thought it was just playing with fire at that range.

I am using Rem 7.5 Primers currently, but have 450s and BR4s also.

Berger claims the 85.5 will stabilize in an 8 twist according to their website? Not sure if that's the case or not.

I've been thinking about the Sierra 77 TMK, 80g SMK, the Berger 80.5g or the 85.5g. Problem is locating the Sierras, and Bergers are just kinda expensive.

I wish these ELDMs would shoot better given their BC/speed/cheapness/availability/and killing ability. And I kinda screwed up by buying 1500 of them before I really knew they would shoot. I just figured they would shoot out of the Bartlein, or I would make them shoot.

I guess 5 shot 3/4 MOA isn't horrible, but I'd like to see consistent 5 shot 1/2 MOA if I'm going to be using this as a 1K trainer.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Try the 75 ELDM with the H 4895. 24.1 is what I use with Berger 75VLD.

 

[Cfshooter]

So I am using virgin Lapua brass as of right now. Starline was put to the backseat once I acquired the Lapua.

I also did some ladders with H4895/IMR4895/Benchmark/IMR8208XBR. But N540 showed the best promise, followed by H4895, which I only have 1# of. Which is also why I went with N540 because I got 5# of it.

I ran the N540 up to 25.6 at 3085fps, but pierced a primer there. That was before I had my bolt bushed. It seemed to have a node at the 3050 range, but I kinda thought it was just playing with fire at that range.

I am using Rem 7.5 Primers currently, but have 450s and BR4s also.

Berger claims the 85.5 will stabilize in an 8 twist according to their website? Not sure if that's the case or not.

I've been thinking about the Sierra 77 TMK, 80g SMK, the Berger 80.5g or the 85.5g. Problem is locating the Sierras, and Bergers are just kinda expensive.

I wish these ELDMs would shoot better given their BC/speed/cheapness/availability/and killing ability. And I kinda screwed up by buying 1500 of them before I really knew they would shoot. I just figured they would shoot out of the Bartlein, or I would make them shoot.

I guess 5 shot 3/4 MOA isn't horrible, but I'd like to see consistent 5 shot 1/2 MOA if I'm going to be using this as a 1K trainer.

If you want to try and force feed the ELDM I would load up OCW test at .005 off touch with 2-3 powders. Since you already know the speeds they produce, just cover about 1gr spread for each powder. I would do 4 charges in .3 spreads (24.0, .3, .6, .9) for each powder and load 4 of 3 of those charges, 8 of one (usually the middle charge). That gives you a total of 20 per powder and you have 4 for fouling of each one. See which powder combo had the best POI and then tune with depth test in .005 spreads seating deeper if need be.

 

[Tireguy]

So I am using virgin Lapua brass as of right now. Starline was put to the backseat once I acquired the Lapua.

I also did some ladders with H4895/IMR4895/Benchmark/IMR8208XBR. But N540 showed the best promise, followed by H4895, which I only have 1# of. Which is also why I went with N540 because I got 5# of it.

I ran the N540 up to 25.6 at 3085fps, but pierced a primer there. That was before I had my bolt bushed. It seemed to have a node at the 3050 range, but I kinda thought it was just playing with fire at that range.

I am using Rem 7.5 Primers currently, but have 450s and BR4s also.

Berger claims the 85.5 will stabilize in an 8 twist according to their website? Not sure if that's the case or not.

I've been thinking about the Sierra 77 TMK, 80g SMK, the Berger 80.5g or the 85.5g. Problem is locating the Sierras, and Bergers are just kinda expensive.

I wish these ELDMs would shoot better given their BC/speed/cheapness/availability/and killing ability. And I kinda screwed up by buying 1500 of them before I really knew they would shoot. I just figured they would shoot out of the Bartlein, or I would make them shoot.

I guess 5 shot 3/4 MOA isn't horrible, but I'd like to see consistent 5 shot 1/2 MOA if I'm going to be using this as a 1K trainer.

I would suggest a ladder test with CCI-450s. N540 yeilds the best results when you redline it. You've got to be comfortable and flexible when on the edge of that envelope.

 

[Gary in MD]

I would keep trying to find some of the Sierra 77 grain TMKs. I'm liking them in a Tikka 22-250.
I think Sierra recently did a run of the 69 & 77 TMKs as I bought boxes of 500 each.
Good luck

 

[kyotekiller25]

By POI you mean where they're all hitting on target correct?

N540 seems to produce a decent node between 24.5-24.8 as far as ES goes anyway. That .4g spread was only 17fps.

But I see what you mean with the POI thing. It seems just .1g of powder shifts the impact a lot more than it should.

I'm gonna try 5 off and repeat the test with N540 and also H4895.

 

[Cfshooter]

By POI you mean where they're all hitting on target correct?

N540 seems to produce a decent node between 24.5-24.8 as far as ES goes anyway. That .4g spread was only 17fps.

But I see what you mean with the POI thing. It seems just .1g of powder shifts the impact a lot more than it should.

I'm gonna try 5 off and repeat the test with N540 and also H4895.

Yep, point of impact. You want to find an area of charge where the POI looks to be the most consistent, the biggest “window”.

If the POI of 24.5 & 24.8 are in the same area, then I would go to 24.6 or 24.7 and fine tune with depth.

In load work up below you can see the littl yellow x for 23.7 & 23.9 we’re about at same spot. The second pic is 23.8 loaded up at a few depths to find the best. Notice how even with the depth test the POI is consistent?

 

[kyotekiller25]

I see what you're saying.

So if you look at my target with 24.5-24.8 you can see how 24.5/24.6/24.8 were all pretty close to POI. However for some reason 24.7 was not. Although it did produce the best group and lowest ES.

I mean like I said before, consistent 5 shot 3/4 MOA isn't horrible, it's just not what I think the rifle is capable of, or should be doing. Maybe it might get a little better with 1x fired brass also as this is all virgin.

I could also revisit 25.2-25.4 at around 3040fps now that my bolt has been bushed, and also try the 450s.

Still have a few more things I'd like to try and test out before I completely rule out the 75g ELDM. It's a damn good bullet that is really unbeatable IMO given everything it can do, and it shoots consistently. I'd like to load them all up and shoot at the same target at 300 yards and see where they all land what they do also. I don't really care for shooting 100 yards that much because it just doesn't seem to tell you as much over the long run and everything is always so close/tight to see the differences. 300 yards is easy to see the good and bad differences if that makes sense.

I shoot the 108 ELDMs in a 6 creed and 180s in a 7-300 Win Mag at 10 off, and they both shoot lights out, 1/2 MOA or better everytime with very minimal load development.

I forgot to add I'm in EO so summers are like 110 and winters are 0. So about a 110 degree difference on the extremes side of summer/winter. Hoping that doesn't effect N540 to much.

Original plan was to just run H4895, but you just can't find it anymore, which is what led me to try N540. I don't particularly care for Varget. Never even tried it or used it. Just felt there were always better powders than varget, plus everyone and their mom shoots varget so availability was always a concern.

 

[Tireguy]

For horizontal groups..... adjust seating depth.

For vertical groups... adjust powder charge.