.223/90VLD vs .308/185BT

[SpencerC]

Currently I am shooting a .223 90VLD combo out of my FT-R rifle and it does pretty well. Mid-range from 300-600 is great, no problems, no recoil and really quite consistent.

At a match on the weekend I shot 800m and 900m for the first time. I was unsure what my load would do at those ranges as I've never shot it before, but I knew my 600 vertical was good, so it couldn't be too bad. Well, it wasn't bad at all. At 800m I shot a perfect 50-10V (1MOA DCRA V-bull) and you couldn't wipe the smile off my face if you wanted to. The second 800 wasn't quite as good and I dropped a couple/few points due to conditions. The 900m stage was ok, I guess, I still held 5 ring vertical but the wind pushed me around a little causing a couple more points, due just as much to my inexperience as any load problem.

My question, however, is about the comparison of the 223 vs 308/185BT. Since I want to play to win, would I be better off with the .308? Theoretically they are the same, very close in BC and MV. How consistent is the .308/185 combo? How hard is it to find a good load for these? I've shot a .308/155 before, there is absolutely nothing new there, extremely easy to get to shoot, but I want the ballistic edge of the 185's.

I have no problem with some of the tedious tasks involved in loading match ammo, but, finding the "perfect" load for the .223/90 takes some time and when you do find it, it can be sensitive to what continues to work best (OAL and temp. especially).

When the winds really get blowing at long range, which would be the best choice?

 

[cmillard]

if the mv and bc are similar, stick with what you are now doing. you get the added benefit of less recoil, cost, and more practice time.

 

[WindSurgeon]

I shoot .223 FT-R out to 600 using the 80 grain VLD's, but go to the larger .308 past that. It is easier for me to get the .308 loads to shoot well. I have not tried the 90 grn bullets since my barrel is a 1-8 twist. That being said, if you like shooting the .223 that far out, you would have some bragging rights if you do well!

 

[Laurie]

Ballistically, Berger's 0.224" 90gn VLD and 0.308" 185gn BTLR are so close that their BCs are identical given the accuracy limits of Bryan Litz's experimental testing methods. So, in a purely external ballistics toss-up, it's down to MVs. I can run the .223 at 50-75 fps more than the .308 Win, so that's a relatively modest plus in the mouse-gun's favour - a third-MOA less wind drift at 1,000yd in the nominal 10 mph 90-degree crosswind. With F-Class target rings moving out in half-MOA steps, that's worth the occasional point bearing in mind that most days will see smaller wind changes than 10 mph between shots and a true 90 degrees crosswind is very unusual on any range I might shoot on.

The big upside is rifle handling, not just recoil reduction but torque reduction too. A friend watching a group of three of us shoot, all GB F Class Assoc league F/TR shooters with rifles and loads capable of being in the top ten in national rounds, commented how obviously easy it was for me to shoot while the two .308 Win users alongside were in his words 'fighting the rifle' on each and every shot. That was despite my using a Versa-Pod lockable tactical bi-pod (all I need for this cartridge) while my companions used state of the art custom wide-set foot bi-pods, one so wide that we joke with its designer / manufacturer / user that if he increases the distance between the ski-feet any more, he'll need his own firing point to shoot from.

The downside is the little cartridge's fussiness not only in getting it to group well but in getting small ES spreads. Unless you're very lucky, it takes more load development than .308 Win, and whatever load you end up with, the pre-match loading process is harder, slower, and involves more work than an equivalent .308 Win load. In particular, powder weighing must be much more precise for the mouse gun as 0.1gn = 10 fps MV change, so you've got a 20 fps MV ES immediately before any other factor such as neck tension kicks in, if you're running at plus or minus 0.1gn consistency - a level that is fine for .308W.

I'm sure there is a barrel-specification issue in getting .223R/90 to work well too and give good barrel life. I've fallen lucky with the 6-groove True-Flite from New Zealand, but some correspondents using cut-rifled 4-groove barrels from good makers report 90gn bullet MVs 150 fps down on what I get from equivalent powder charge weights and just cannot get them to shoot well either. I suspect the internal dimensions need to be on the tight side and wonder if multi-groove rifling forms, maybe better still forms with an odd number of grooves and canted / ratchet groove forms that support the bullet better than a traditional four-groove type may be needed. Hopefully, a body of expertise and experience will arise in due course, but there are so few .223 long-range shooters around compared to .308 Win, there is no guarantee of that appearing. That's not to take into account the larger cartridge's 60 year head start as a 1,000yd cartridge, the British Commonwealth adopting Target Rifle in 1968 and using standard 144-150gn NATO 7.62mm milspec ammunition at long ranges from day one having to quickly learn a barrel-load of new tricks to make the ammunition perform.

As to how easy it is to get the Berger 185 to shoot? Very easy indeed if you use the BTLR rather than the (lower BC anyway) VLD. I personally regard this as the optimum choice for .308 Win F/TR at long ranges, the 210s being better ballistically but increasing recoil and torque to the point where rifle management and handling consistency issues on a bi-pod supported rig risk negating or even outweighing the heavy bullet's benefits. The norm now amongst many GB F/TR shooters is to take both 155 and 210gn ammunition to long-range matches and use whichever suits the wind conditions. I'm unusual in using the 185gn Berger BTLR in all conditions (and even more unusual in shooting .223 Rem over here, although a growing number of Scottish competitors based on the Blair Atholl Range are developing 90gn .223 loads).

Another question mark for 2012 onwards is how well the new Berger 0.308" 185 and 200gn Hybrids will perform. With G7 BCs of 0.291 and 0.320 respectively, they may be the bullets to use at long ranges in F/TR if they are easy to tune for small groups and high / consistent MVs.

Oh ... there is one further mouse gun disadvantage that is regarded as a major downside by many shooters. The little hole and lighter sonic crack can cause target marking problems - both in having a slow shoot constantly requesting the target to be pulled and worse being scored a miss because the bullet hole isn't found. It makes regular pasting up of new target centres even more important than usual in major matches.

 

[SpencerC]

Thanks for the reply, Laurie. Those are all great comments on the concerns I had with this comparison.

I'm using a light load this year and have only been pushing them to 2715fps. With this load my ES=14 and my SD=4 over 10 shots and it was accurate, so I didn't feel the need to push it any harder than that. In the grand scheme of things, accuracy is going to trump velocity when only 100fps is the only difference IMO. From 2715 - 2820 (speed I shot last year) the difference in wind drift at 1000y in the "standard wind" is 4". But, the difference between a 10mph wind and an 11mph wind is 7" FWIW.

I'm not sure what the deal is with barrel specs, but the 2 I have used have both worked well. The first one was just a factory 26" Savage barrel that I was getting my 2820fps from with 24.4gn of Varget (last year's setup), and my latest is a Shilen Select match 30" with standard rifling. My next is a 30" Broughton with their 5C rifling and I have high hopes for this barrel. I personally believe the long barrel is necessary not for increased MV, but much more consistent MV. I will have to shoot some more over the chrony to see if my SD and ES numbers are still repeatable, but, considering what I am using for loading gear, I'm sure the barrel is doing it's job very well. I am only using a cheap POS lee beam scale to measure my powder. I throw a light charge into the pan with the POS lee perfect powder measure and then trickle in to bring it up. I'm not sure of the consistency of the charge weight, but the paper doesn't lie. It seems to work well enough for the time being. I have no doubt better equipment wouldn't hurt, but, not everything can be in the budget at the same time.

I believe some people are too hell bent on getting as much MV as they can with this, and then get discouraged when they can't make it shoot. This cartridge is so much more sensitive to, well, everything, that some are going about the load development in the wrong frame of mind. I'm using a light charge of a slower powder, 23.5gn of N150, and when conditions are right, it can really hammer. However, if I had more time to do it, I would try to find a load that would shoot best in high heat as well. Since I did most of mine at about ~10C, it shoots great at and around that temp, but when things got up to 30C+, it started to open up slightly.

It also worked out well with the lower MV since the pressure wasn't there, I was able to use Federal 205M primers which I have found to give better accuracy than others. If I were to push it faster like last year, I would have to use my CCI BR-4's with the thicker cups to be sure I wasn't going to pierce one.

Funny you should mention concerns of sound. During my last match, some of the other guys I shot with said they didn't even know I shot yet as they didn't hear it go off and were wondering why the target was going down all of a sudden haha. You do, however, notice when the target markers aren't used to looking for the smaller .22 hole in the target, sometimes it does take them awhile. That being said, I also think that when a shot is extremely close to the ring and you challenge for a higher value, they need to measure it as a .323/8mm bullet as I believe that is what the rule is in DCRA F-class anyway. I'm not sure if it is ever enforced, but, some of these matches are only won by 1 point/1 V-bull.

I think that's all for now....

Cheers,
Spencer

 

[wolfman]

Hi Spencer,

I'm sorry to have missed you at the match last weekend. It sounds like you did quite well on your first visit to Batouche. As Laurie has said, the 185 BT is very easy to make shoot well. I have found it every bit as easy to make shoot as the 155.5. Having said that, I think I'd pick up a tuned RCBS 10-10 and keep doing what you are doing w/ your .223, before going to the expense of building a new rifle.

 

[SpencerC]

Thanks for the kind words, wolfman. I don't think the conditions were quite there to have been "Batoche'd" haha but it was still tricky enough. I wasn't ecstatic about it's performance from 3-600, I expected a little more, but, I'll chalk that up to it being an unfamiliar range It's strange how you can shoot a 50-7 at the new DCRA 1/2MOA F-class target and then shoot a 50-8 at the 1MOA target....different frame of mind I guess, I don't know.

I just can't help thinking what I could change that would help me get back those 3-4 points that takes me out of the running. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get out shooting more, although it's hard to do when they unexpectedly close the range...I'm not crazy about switching to the .308/185 because of the negatives, but if I would have a higher chance of winning with it, that's what I want to do. It's expensive enough as it is, but, it's just a waste of time to lose.

I would like to pick up a 10-10 somewhere, although they seem a little hard to come by. Definitely don't see any used ones around..

 

[queen_stick]

Thanks for the kind words, wolfman. I don't think the conditions were quite there to have been "Batoche'd" haha but it was still tricky enough. I wasn't ecstatic about it's performance from 3-600, I expected a little more, but, I'll chalk that up to it being an unfamiliar range It's strange how you can shoot a 50-7 at the new DCRA 1/2MOA F-class target and then shoot a 50-8 at the 1MOA target....different frame of mind I guess, I don't know.

I just can't help thinking what I could change that would help me get back those 3-4 points that takes me out of the running. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get out shooting more, although it's hard to do when they unexpectedly close the range...I'm not crazy about switching to the .308/185 because of the negatives, but if I would have a higher chance of winning with it, that's what I want to do. It's expensive enough as it is, but, it's just a waste of time to lose.

I would like to pick up a 10-10 somewhere, although they seem a little hard to come by. Definitely don't see any used ones around..

contact scott parker on this site... he tunes beam scales, and does a fine job of doing it! forum name: sparker

 

[rcampbell]

For me the only disadvantage to the 308 is the cost of powder and bullets. I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but for me personally, recoil and "taming" the rifle are non-issues. I'll be honest, I don't have a huge love for reloading, so for me the 308 wins in that respect as well because it's just less time messing around making ammo.

The way I look at it is that the only differences are cost in consumables, recoil and reloading finicky-ness. The 308 is easier to load, and I don't mind the recoil hence my choice. And really, if we're shooting $3000 dollar rifles, and trying to win, the difference in consumables cost should most likely be a non-issue as well.

This is not to say the 223's will not perform, because I've had my arse kicked by them But for me, the 308 is my preference.

That being said, I also think that when a shot is extremely close to the ring and you challenge for a higher value, they need to measure it as a .323/8mm bullet as I believe that is what the rule is in DCRA F-class anyway.

12.7. When a shot touches the line between two divisions of the target, the competitor will be
credited with the higher value. In case of doubt a gauge of 7.82mm diameter (=0.308 inches)
will be used (regardless of the actual calibre in use) to determine the value of the shot. The
ruling by a Butt Officer will be final.


But yes your point does make sense. This is where our electronic targeting system will really help, because it plots the center of the impact, so we can draw the same 7.82mm hole around that point so everyone has the same size bullet from a scoring perspective.

-Ryan

 

[hogan]

Very interesting article in the Winter 2008 Canadian Marksman about 1000yd .223 boltgun shooting. 20rd grps with 2" vertical stringing at 1000 w/JLK 90gr and 90gr SMK...
http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Winter%20Spring%202008%20Edition.pdf

See p.16 for article by Clint Dahlstrom