223 90 grain Sierra Match King bullet match report

[Ned Ludd]

Could anyone pull out their crystal ball and give me an guestimated powder charge to get the 90 SMK to 2700fps with a 30" barrel, Case capacity of 30.4 water, COAL 2.430.

Powders would be Varget, CFE, or Reloder-15.

Primers would be Rem 7 1/2 or more likely Wolf SRM.

I am trying to wrap my head around this process and looking for general numbers only, not loading data.

I ran the numbers for you in Quickload using the following inputs: 30" barrel, 90 SMK, case length 1.750", COAL - 2.430", case volume - 30.4 gr H2O, and temperature - 75 degrees F; along with the program's preset burn rates for the powders you listed.

Varget 22.7 gr - 97.9% fill ratio; 51,603 psi; 2699 fps; 1.438 ms barrel time

CFE 23.5 gr - 88.0% fill ratio; 47,273 psi; 2703 fps; 1.474 ms barrel time

Re15 22.6 gr - 94.3% fill ratio; 49,180 psi; 2707 fps; 1.468 ms barrel time

Be aware that these are predictions only, and were made using QL's preset powder burn rates, which may not be correct for your setup, or specific lots of powder/primers. Further, there is no guarantee that ~2700 fps velocity in your setup will correspond to any kind of accuracy node, so you may need to alter your velocity expectations a little, or even quite a bit, in order to get it tuned in.

I typically do this type of prediction to get a rough idea of the charge weight associated with the optimized barrel node I can hit with a given barrel length. I then back that off by about 2% and then determine velocity for loaded rounds. I can then adjust the burn rate in the program until the predicted and actual velocities match exactly. Once you have "calibrated" QL to your setup in this manner, I have found the predictions to generally be quite good. In any event, this ought to at least give you some idea of where to start. Good luck.

 

[JAlfred]

Thank you Gentlemen, I have a few boxes on the way.

 

[stacy]

DONE SOME RANGE WORK WITH THE SIERRA 90GRS IN A 223 ACK.SHOT GOOD GROUPS BUT THE 90GR BERGERS SHOT BETTER GROUP THAT IS OUT OF MY RIFLE BUT THE SIERRAS WERE VERY CLOSE !

 

[JAlfred]

I've got some SMK 90s which are labeled 9290. Frankly I don't know if these are a "new" batch or not. My understanding is not that they're "tipped" like the Tipped SMK 69s; i.e. with a plastic tip. Rather the meplat is normalized, but I'm not sure how. And I'm not sure how you're supposed to find out. I can't find any information and if there is information on Sierra's web site, I can seem to find it. Can anyone point me to some data on these "new" versions of the SMK 90s in .223 caliber?

Anyhow, here are your requested OAL measurements of the first five I measured of the ones I have on hand.
1.1565 1.162 1.1585 1.1585 1.1545
As you can see, they're all over the place. You might do better measuring the bullet base to ogive, but that depends on the size of the insert and, as far as I know, these aren't standardized so you and I could very well come up with different readings of base to ogive distances even using the same brand of bullet comparator.

Mozella,
The boxes of 90s that came in the mail yesterday are labeled 9290T, I do not know if they are pointed or not.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Mozella,
The boxes of 90s that came in the mail yesterday are labeled 9290T, I do not know if they are pointed or not.

Open one...then you'll know .

Mozella, the 90 SMKs are not tipped like Sierra's TMK (Tipped Match Kings), they are actually pointed by a die. I can't say anything regarding the meaning of the serial number with a "T". But I'd bet that if you have a recent enough lot, they're pointed in the box. If it's an older lot, they may not be pointed, but they would simply be regular OTM meplats, not [pointed] plastic tips like the TMKs.

 

[eric n]

Mozella,
The boxes of 90s that came in the mail yesterday are labeled 9290T, I do not know if they are pointed or not.

My 9290 without the T are tipped.

 

[JAlfred]

They were not pointed, I have a spread loaded up over 21.7 to 23 gr Reloder 15. Varget is next over a similar range. COAL winds up 2.42

 

[JAlfred]

gstaylor, do you think 23 gr Reloder -15 would be too hot? COAL @0.015 off About 2.415. LC prepped brass was used. 23 Ran about 0.357 MOA, worst group was still less than0.8 MOA. 0.5 MOA was easy with most loads in that neighborhood. I think I am going to pick another 500. for a more detailed detailed work up. Primer pocket seemed tight even at 23 gr.

Varget was not as accurate and seemed to showed higher pressure for any given charge.

Shooting @ 600 against 80s , seemed to drift less in wind, even in lower velocity loads (22.2 gr Varget)

 

[Ned Ludd]

I really have no "feel" for RL15, I've simply never tried it and my opinion would be worth very little. I have mostly used H4895 and a few tries with Varget for the heavies in .223 and have a much better idea of typical charge weight ranges and expected velocities for those two powders. From a 30" barrel, I think it would be fair to say you should expect anywhere in the ~2800 to ~2850 fps range at the high accuracy node for several of the most popular .223 Rem/heavy bullet powders. This is a rough estimate, but probably not too far off the mark. Pressure and velocity will vary depending on the powder used, but my experience suggests if the powder you're using puts you in the 2800-2825 fps range (lower half), brass life will probably be fairly reasonable. If you're closer to the 2850 fps mark (upper half), brass life may not be so great.

If you consider my rough estimate of the velocity range you might expect with 90 gr bullet and a 30" barrel carefully, you'll notice it's not all that wide (~50 fps or less). Although I'd always take it (especially in a .223) if the precision was equal, an extra 25-50 fps velocity isn't a HUGE difference. Even at 1000 yd, it represents only a very modest increase in performance. Such being the case, as long as you end up somewhere in that neighborhood, I'd be most concerned with precision. Extra velocity is nice when you can get it, but consistent velocity and very good precision are what will help win matches. In other words, find the sweet spot where it consistently shoots the tightest groups and the final [average] velocity you get will take care of itself, largely dependent on your powder selection.

 

[r bose]

gstaylor, do you think 23 gr Reloder -15 would be too hot? COAL @0.015 off About 2.415. LC prepped brass was used. 23 Ran about 0.357 MOA, worst group was still less than0.8 MOA. 0.5 MOA was easy with most loads in that neighborhood. I think I am going to pick another 500. for a more detailed detailed work up. Primer pocket seemed tight even at 23 gr.

Varget was not as accurate and seemed to showed higher pressure for any given charge.

Shooting @ 600 against 80s , seemed to drift less in wind, even in lower velocity loads (22.2 gr Varget)

JAlfred,

I can provide some load data using RL-15 but I must caution, my OAL is 2.645 with 90g Bergers. I am jamming 10 thou also so take that into consideration. These loads are warm but I've shot them in 95 degree heat with no issues.

In Lapua brass.....24.5g RL-15 (lapua tends to be heavier) 2855 FPS

In LC brass, weighted to get consistency, 24.8g RL-15 ( I actually prefer the LC) 2870 FPS

I shoot prone, palma rifle 31" barrel. Can't give you 600yd or 1000yd group sizes but will say either load is very capable of holding the x ring.

Personally I'd think about having your present barrel throated out. I'm sure you've been told that already, but this limits you to 2 bullets both 90g. The 90's are a great bullet when set up properly.

 

[JAlfred]

Thank you all again, your assistance is invaluable.

I have a friend with a magnetospeed so I will be able to get some data, but it will be a while. I am saving my pennies for a Labradar.

 

[boltman223]

JAlfred,

I can provide some load data using RL-15 but I must caution, my OAL is 2.645 with 90g Bergers. I am jamming 10 thou also so take that into consideration. These loads are warm but I've shot them in 95 degree heat with no issues.

In Lapua brass.....24.5g RL-15 (lapua tends to be heavier) 2855 FPS

In LC brass, weighted to get consistency, 24.8g RL-15 ( I actually prefer the LC) 2870 FPS

I shoot prone, palma rifle 31" barrel. Can't give you 600yd or 1000yd group sizes but will say either load is very capable of holding the x ring.

Personally I'd think about having your present barrel throated out. I'm sure you've been told that already, but this limits you to 2 bullets both 90g. The 90's are a great bullet when set up properly.

80 smk's have shot great in my rifle (less
Than X-ring vertical at 600 yds) throated for the 90's. Which has .169 freebore. So I don't see why someone works be limited to 90's.

I did try some cheap factory 55 gr. Ammo and it shot about 1moa at 100.

 

[Ned Ludd]

80 smk's have shot great in my rifle (less Gy
Than X-ring vertical at 600 yds) throated for the 90's. Which has .169 freebore. So I don't see why someone works be limited to 90's.

I did try some cheap factory 55 gr. Ammo and it shot about 1moa at 100.

This was out of your 0.169" fb chamber? If so, that's good to know, thanks.

 

[Laurie]

The 80.5 Berger Fullbore groups well from the 169 FP 'ISSF' chamber too. In fact, so far, I've yet to get either the 90 VLD or BT to group as well as this bullet in this configuration. So, that's a big plus over 190-200 FBs.

I'm interested in what people are saying about the improved 90 SMK. I'll have to see if I can find any in the UK.

 

[r bose]

80 smk's have shot great in my rifle (less
Than X-ring vertical at 600 yds) throated for the 90's. Which has .169 freebore. So I don't see why someone works be limited to 90's.

I did try some cheap factory 55 gr. Ammo and it shot about 1moa at 100.

Oh, I'm not saying 80's won't work. Have shot my fair share of 80 amax, SMK, and noslers and 80.5 and 82 bergers. But in a long throated 223, if you have the projectile departing the brass case before it engages the lands, weird stuff "can happen" to accuracy. Throating out to .169 freebore gives you about 150 thou bearing surface of a 80 SMK left in the case. So, if the barrel is new, not a problem but depending on throat wear, you might get to a point where it can (80 class bullets) leave the case before engaging the lands.

When 90's weren't available I shot 80.5 bergers at 3100 FPS and they hammered at 600

 

[BlackburnBuccaneer]

The 80.5 Berger Fullbore groups well from the 169 FP 'ISSF' chamber too. In fact, so far, I've yet to get either the 90 VLD or BT to group as well as this bullet in this configuration. So, that's a big plus over 190-200 FBs.

I'm interested in what people are saying about the improved 90 SMK. I'll have to see if I can find any in the UK.

Laurie,
I ordered a couple of hundred of these from HPS a couple of weeks ago (after reading this thread), they arrived in their customary plastic bag, but are indeed of the new pointed variety - hopefully they should still have some. I have yet to shoot them past 100y, but should be able to test them at 500y this Sunday.

 

[boltman223]

Oh, I'm not saying 80's won't work. Have shot my fair share of 80 amax, SMK, and noslers and 80.5 and 82 bergers. But in a long throated 223, if you have the projectile departing the brass case before it engages the lands, weird stuff "can happen" to accuracy. Throating out to .169 freebore gives you about 150 thou bearing surface of a 80 SMK left in the case. So, if the barrel is new, not a problem but depending on throat wear, you might get to a point where it can (80 class bullets) leave the case before engaging the lands.

When 90's weren't available I shot 80.5 bergers at 3100 FPS and they hammered at 600

Sorry sir, I misunderstood.

 

[boltman223]

Oh, I'm not saying 80's won't work. Have shot my fair share of 80 amax, SMK, and noslers and 80.5 and 82 bergers. But in a long throated 223, if you have the projectile departing the brass case before it engages the lands, weird stuff "can happen" to accuracy. Throating out to .169 freebore gives you about 150 thou bearing surface of a 80 SMK left in the case. So, if the barrel is new, not a problem but depending on throat wear, you might get to a point where it can (80 class bullets) leave the case before engaging the lands.

When 90's weren't available I shot 80.5 bergers at 3100 FPS and they hammered at 600

I don't want to hijack this thread, but since it has been brought up i would like to comment (only as food for thought).

Over the years I have read a lot of reference to freebore in association to accuracy. From my experience I haven't seen it as detrimental as most make it out to be. I have used .224 caliber bullets with zero freebore to .169 and with everything from 40 grains to 90's in a rifle with a .169 freebore. And know others who have used long throats with short bullets and long jumps.

So the post I quoted being an example of the common perception. Is the freebore solely the culprit? Or is firing enough rounds to move/erode the rifling something that should be taken into consideration(what is the actual condition of the bore) more so than the actual freebore itself? My rifles have shot great with long jumps and are not the only ones. Among others Laurie has had great success as mentioned above.

Have opinions been formed before we had adequate info (and people jump on the bandwagon because it sounds good) to base them on meaning not having borescopes and the cleaning products we have now.

Are we looking in the wrong spots for our answers? Was the bad accuracy a result of not testing all seating depths? Keep in mind berger recommends trying .120 jump in there seating depth test. Probably for good reason.

I think at times the simple things are overlooked.

Maybe I'm out in left field, but this is what my experience has made me ponder.

 

[eric n]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but since it has been brought up i would like to comment (only as food for thought).


Over the years I have read a lot of reference to freebore in association to accuracy. From my experience I haven't seen it as detrimental as most make it out to be. I have used .224 caliber bullets with zero freebore to .169 and with everything from 40 grains to 90's in a rifle with a .169 freebore. And know others who have used long throats with short bullets and long jumps.

So the post I quoted being an example of the common perception. Is the freebore solely the culprit? Or is firing enough rounds to move/erode the rifling something that should be taken into consideration(what is the actual condition of the bore) more so than the actual freebore itself? My rifles have shot great with long jumps and are not the only ones. Among others Laurie has had great success as mentioned above.

Have opinions been formed before we had adequate info (and people jump on the bandwagon because it sounds good) to base them on meaning not having borescopes and the cleaning products we have now.

Are we looking in the wrong spots for our answers? Was the bad accuracy a result of not testing all seating depths? Keep in mind berger recommends trying .120 jump in there seating depth test. Probably for good reason.

I think at times the simple things are overlooked.

Maybe I'm out in left field, but this is what my experience has made me ponder.

I don't think you are in left field.
I worked up loads with the standard charge of varget and the 90's with what I "think" is a .068 free bore. Although the throat is a bit washed out, the boat tail/ bearing surface is still quite far into the case. I may be running high pressure, I don't know because I don't have quickload but I do know I didnt get excessive pressure signs and my brass(primer pocket) life is on par with a properly throated chamber. The only thing holding the load back is the lack of ability of the shooter to read wind.
Matter of fact, I have a new barrel with the short freebore and a unithroater on the way. I'm having second thoughts about cutting it.

 

[jsthntn247]

The 80.5 Berger Fullbore groups well from the 169 FP 'ISSF' chamber too. In fact, so far, I've yet to get either the 90 VLD or BT to group as well as this bullet in this configuration. So, that's a big plus over 190-200 FBs.

I'm interested in what people are saying about the improved 90 SMK. I'll have to see if I can find any in the UK.

I shot a 200-16x with them at 600 the first time I shot them in a match. Took them to Missouri and got second in their state match, 14 points above 3rd place. Gstaylorg finished first with the 90 Bergers 15 points ahead of me. It wasn't the bullets fault, they shot well. On day 1 Greg said he never held out of the 10 ring and mostly on the edge of the X. I was holding well into the 9 ring from side to side. I know it's not an apples to apples comparison because we don't know where our no wind zeros were etc. The Sierra's were easier to find a load for and were less finicky to seating depth.