.223 77 he load inconsistency

[gunmutt]

Okay so I loaded up some .223 rounds for my 20" 1n7 heavy barrel ar. Using 77 great nosler cc, lc brass 2015 HD (never fired), CCI 41 primers, 23.7 gr rl15 (50 rds) and 24 gr n140 (50 rds). All rounds have a oh so slight crimp and charges were thrown using a rcbs charge master.
On a 10 string for chronograph data the spread was +/- 30 fps for both. The rl15 runs at about 2530fps and the n140 is about the same.
Max spread for both at 100 yards is just under 1 inch with the rl15 being slightly better and just slightly faster, maybe 5 fps more on AVG.
The thing is I am wanting this round to be more consistent with smaller groups and less SD in velocity.
What are my best options to obtain this. I am using an rcbs small base sizing die and thinking a full length bushing die could help with consistent neck tension. Switching to either a wolf SRM primer would give faster velocity but a Remington BR primer could help SD. ---> change in charge load would be needed.
Also does once fired brass help since I am now in that realm?
Any help would be appreciated

 

[josebd]

You don't need to crimp

 

[josebd]

I use regular full length die,load up 3 rounds and work you way up to max published data,watch for pressure

 

[gunmutt]

I use regular full length die,load up 3 rounds and work you way up to max published data,watch for pressure

You don't need to crimp

When I did not crimp I had more deviation in velocity

 

[josebd]

I don't use a chrony,I just shot a little over 1/4 inch group,3 shots,with my bosses ar15 bushmaster

 

[gunmutt]

Well I did pick up a Redding small base full bushing sizing die for $40 today. This might help some. I am also going to rework up the rl15 load using some wolf small rifle magnum primer and some Remington 7.5s too

 

[Rtheurer]

May I ask what the ammo is to be used for in your AR? NRA HighPower? Or something else.

 

[gunmutt]

Practice, breathing, position holding, reading wind, zombies. you know the usual stuff

 

[Wingnut00]

I got a rock river that is a honest 1/4-3/8" gun. 77 matchkings and H-322. When I got it I put cci-41 and br-4's in my cases and accuracy and sd kind of sucked. Put a 450 in and shrunk group size to what I'm gettin now. Sd is high single digits. If my memory is correct I think 8. Velocity is 2721. You gotta try magnum primer in my opinion.
And I put a good crimp on to. Without it groups and sd was shit.

 

[USMCDOC]

And I put a good crimp on to. Without it groups and sd was shit.

Wait.... What???? Good man, control it with neck tension, not crimping.. you will deform the jacket and disturb the concentricity of the bullet.

 

[Wingnut00]

Wait.... What???? Good man, control it with neck tension, not crimping.. you will deform the jacket and disturb the concentricity of the bullet.

Yes sir I tried more neck tension and still didn't help. Not sayin you are wrong at all. Just sayin what worked so well for that specific rifle. And I worried about screwin up the bullet to but that fricken ar is incredibly accurate with my combination. I have shot it with awesome results to 900yds. But again don't get me wrong. I respect your comment and and agree with you but my process worked very well with that specific gun.

 

[USMCDOC]

Yes sir I tried more neck tension and still didn't help. Not sayin you are wrong at all. Just sayin what worked so well for that specific rifle. And I worried about screwin up the bullet to but that fricken ar is incredibly accurate with my combination. I have shot it with awesome results to 900yds. But again don't get me wrong. I respect your comment and and agree with you but my process worked very well with that specific gun.

Sir, i can not argue with that.. i am happy to see that for bit of once that it works really well!

 

[rifleman700]

Okay so I loaded up some .223 rounds for my 20" 1n7 heavy barrel ar. Using 77 great nosler cc, lc brass 2015 HD (never fired), CCI 41 primers, 23.7 gr rl15 (50 rds) and 24 gr n140 (50 rds). All rounds have a oh so slight crimp and charges were thrown using a rcbs charge master.
On a 10 string for chronograph data the spread was +/- 30 fps for both. The rl15 runs at about 2530fps and the n140 is about the same.
Max spread for both at 100 yards is just under 1 inch with the rl15 being slightly better and just slightly faster, maybe 5 fps more on AVG.
The thing is I am wanting this round to be more consistent with smaller groups and less SD in velocity.
What are my best options to obtain this. I am using an rcbs small base sizing die and thinking a full length bushing die could help with consistent neck tension. Switching to either a wolf SRM primer would give faster velocity but a Remington BR primer could help SD. ---> change in charge load would be needed.
Also does once fired brass help since I am now in that realm?
Any help would be appreciated

How did you decide on these powder charges? Did you do a load work up or are these just random charges? Load work up is very easy and there are many methods on this forum that have good info that can help. Unless you want to start over with load work up I would suggest only making one change at a time. If you want to change dies then change dies but don't change primers at the same time or you will be swimming upstream against the current. ES of 30 fps should be as easy as a primer change but I question how stable this powder node is without having done a complete load work up. Also crimping is not necessary. In my 223, 6.8 SPC and 300 BO AR's I do no crimping and the accuracy is much better and it has not been an issue with any of them and I run them all pretty hard. As stated elsewhere if you feel you need neck tension then do it with a neck bushing die.

 

[Rtheurer]

Okay so I loaded up some .223 rounds for my 20" 1n7 heavy barrel ar. Using 77 great nosler cc, lc brass 2015 HD (never fired), CCI 41 primers, 23.7 gr rl15 (50 rds) and 24 gr n140 (50 rds). All rounds have a oh so slight crimp and charges were thrown using a rcbs charge master.
On a 10 string for chronograph data the spread was +/- 30 fps for both. The rl15 runs at about 2530fps and the n140 is about the same.
Max spread for both at 100 yards is just under 1 inch with the rl15 being slightly better and just slightly faster, maybe 5 fps more on AVG.
The thing is I am wanting this round to be more consistent with smaller groups and less SD in velocity.
What are my best options to obtain this. I am using an rcbs small base sizing die and thinking a full length bushing die could help with consistent neck tension. Switching to either a wolf SRM primer would give faster velocity but a Remington BR primer could help SD. ---> change in charge load would be needed.
Also does once fired brass help since I am now in that realm?
Any help would be appreciated

If the rifle is shooting well but the SD is a little high I would not get wrapped around the axle about it. Seems the bench rest crowd is now telling us that SD and ES are not as important as we once thought. Bullets on target are what matters and some of those guys are shooting some tiny groups with some rather large ES's.
Case in point I shot a 200-17X's at 600 yards with a load that yielded a 83fps ES and a SD of 18fps for twenty shots. Made me scratch my head a little bit. The more you know.. the more it seems I find out I have been mistaken.

its fun to test though. Just a thought.

Russ T

 

[savagedasher]

If the rifle is shooting well but the SD is a little high I would not get wrapped around the axle about it. Seems the bench rest crowd is now telling us that SD and ES are not as important as we once thought. Bullets on target are what matters and some of those guys are shooting some tiny groups with some rather large ES's.
Case in point I shot a 200-17X's at 600 yards with a load that yielded a 83fps ES and a SD of 18fps for twenty shots. Made me scratch my head a little bit. The more you know.. the more it seems I find out I have been mistaken.

its fun to test though. Just a thought.

Russ T

We're the bullets out high and low if they were lower ES would help . Larry

 

[Rtheurer]

no sir they where not.

 

[savagedasher]

no sir they where not.

Then don't worry . I don't shoot 223 but I don't expect more then2" of vertical at 600 if the conditions are good . Larry

 

[gunmutt]

How did you decide on these powder charges? Did you do a load work up or are these just random charges? Load work up is very easy and there are many methods on this forum that have good info that can help. Unless you want to start over with load work up I would suggest only making one change at a time. If you want to change dies then change dies but don't change primers at the same time or you will be swimming upstream against the current. ES of 30 fps should be as easy as a primer change but I question how stable this powder node is without having done a complete load work up. Also crimping is not necessary. In my 223, 6.8 SPC and 300 BO AR's I do no crimping and the accuracy is much better and it has not been an issue with any of them and I run them all pretty hard. As stated elsewhere if you feel you need neck tension then do it with a neck bushing die.

These were both powder charges that yielded a good result from a ladder test. I started with RL15 and switched to N140 for a cleaner powder (More carbon generally equals more build up on ARs). The N140 is so dang pricey so I revisited the RL15 and did a side by side comparison and chronographed the test. The results were mixed. They shot about the same with less than 1" groups at 100 yards. They could be smaller if my nerves had not been shot from a rough night of work. Now I wanted to change dies due to a issue with my current non bushing small base RCBS die. I was getting a faint scratch on the neck of my brass. I tried to corrective this with some bore paste and a barrel mop but in the end i knew it was not going to work. So yes when I saw the Redding Type S small base full sizing die on clearance at my local GS I snag that puppy up. Next I wanted to try some other primer I have around my bench. So since I am doing a full load work up with the new die I am mixing in some Wolf small rifle magnums and Remington 7 1/2s. I dont mind the work it takes to work up the new load as it seems once I get a load worked up for a rifle I tend to buy another rifle and start over. All and all its a learning process and I am really wanting to make my reloads more consistent.

 

[mic2377]

I would try a different primer. My best results have been with the CCI-450's, compared to 400's or 41's.

 

[JAlfred]

XBR 8208 is all I use for 77s now. It doesn't seem too finicky about primers. I'm really loving the Sierra TMK 77 gr as well. Good results have been had with Noslers with Varget, Rl-15, and TAC.