223 53 gr Vmax with N133 and TAC

[RabbitSlayer]

I'm currently using N133 and 53gr vmax in my Savage Model 12. Accuracy has been so so at around .75, but I feel like its more me than the gun/load for some reason. If I'm shooting groups on paper, .75 is what I get (don't remember the powder charge off the top of my head), but if I'm shooting at 1 moa plates at 400 and 500, it seems like I'm getting under .5 MOA. I chalk it up to a mental issue with paper on my part and move on

I have 18 lbs of TAC that I stock up on 2 year ago for around $27/lb, so I really need to work up a load with it and see if it does any better.

Yep, the price is how I ended up with 16lbs of TAC. Glad I bought it cuz it went way up.

 

[Lefty2506]

Yeah, I bought it specifically because it was essentially the cheapest 55-62gr powder I could get at the time. I'd picked up 2 lb when things were still hard to get. I had some loads I'd worked up for BLC-2, and TAC looked to be similar and was in stock. After getting it, I figured out that for all of my stuff, TAC is a direct replacement for BLC-2. When powder became readily available again, TAC was cheap so I picked up 2 kegs just to make sure I'd have it on hand. I picked 4 lb of N133 at the same time because I wanted an accurate, stable powder for PDs, and was willing to pay the VV "premium" to get it. Now TAC is noticeably more expensive than most of the VV powders I use. Funny how things change....

I do have some N133 load data that I developed +20 years ago using 40gr and 50gr NBTs, and it was giving me 1/2 mao groups from my first AR. I still have that upper, and its still a shooter so I've never lost any sleep over whether or not I'd be able to use the N133.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Here are my results of the pressure test with TAC. I had the very slightly primer cratering at Hornaday max load, nothing to worry about. I can feel it with my finger but barely see it. 26.1 is obvious primer craterering. I see zero other signs, probably cuz its 556 brass. I bet it could go higher with a different primer, but 26.1 with the CCI 400 is too spicy for me. Where would ya'll go with the powder test now? I'm thinking 25 to 25.8 in .2 grain increments.

I left the ammo outside in the shade for over about 2 hours first. It was only 91. It was 97 last time on the dog town, ammo cooking in the truck. I dont want to even be close to pressure with ball powder.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Low to high. You can clearly see the primer cratering on the far right.

 

[RegionRat]

I wonder how the results would run with a REM 7 1/2 instead of the CCI 400?
Although, your velocity seems to be very close to the Hodgdon data so if it ain't broke....

Where would ya'll go with the powder test now? I'm thinking 25 to 25.8 in .02 grain increments.

I would run group tests at 25.4 and call it good if they perform, but I'm the type who likes minute of prairie dog at about 400 yards with these and calls it a day.
Did you slip a decimal in the 0.02 grain increment or is that really how small you plan to step? YMMV

ETA: The temps were in the 90's for your test. The reason I mentioned the REM 7 1/2 is for even hotter and much colder days. Nothing wrong with the CCI 400 or these results.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I wonder how the results would run with a REM 7 1/2 instead of the CCI 400?
Although, your velocity seems to be very close to the Hodgdon data so if it ain't broke....

I would run group tests at 25.4 and call it good if they perform, but I'm the type who likes minute of prairie dog at about 400 yards with these and calls it a day.
Did you slip a decimal in the 0.02 grain increment or is that really how small you plan to step? YMMV

ETA: The temps were in the 90's for your test. The reason I mentioned the REM 7 1/2 is for even hotter and much colder days. Nothing wrong with the CCI 400 or these results.

Yeah that was a typo, .2 gr steps. I hear you on just picking one and see if it shoots. If I was to guess like that I would go with 25 as its a flat spot and nice even number. 25.5 would be my next choice. Might be a good choice since its not even my rifle. If his shoots .75 moa and mine does .5 moa, more chance he buys the beer lol!

I have just slowly acquired the 400s and have about 5k of them. Its all there was locally. I don't really know what to do with them. Its certainly not my first choice. Might as well let my buddy shoot em.

On a side note, I definitely feel like the progression in velocity was smoother and I feel confident about it with a creedmoor scale. The charges are +\- 0.01. Way better than the rcbs chargemaster link I throw the charges on. The rcbs tends to be low and sometimes 0.2 off.

 

[RegionRat]

If I was to guess like that I would go with 25 as its a flat spot and nice even number. 25.5 would be my next choice. Might be a good choice since its not even my rifle. If his shoots .75 moa and mine does .5 moa, more chance he buys the beer lol!

I like these at right around the published max if the powder is stable in heat, so if we said 3250 plus or minus, and we say for example on varmints we want at least a 2000 fps impact, then these would be good for around say 350 yards or so. After that, they still work but there is less splat factor if you catch my drift.

Here is an AB run for you with a sea level condition and 9 twist assumption. I think TAC will do just fine.
But BTW, there is no such thing as the "flat spot" you mentioned. If you ran that identical test a few more runs, it would evaporate and the whole plot just looks like a smooth line with a thickness. Trust the targets, and try not to focus on the chrono and flat spots. Good Luck and in for the range reports.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I loaded up 25 rds at 25.5 of TAC. The results are not so good, but I am actually pretty happy with it and what I expected. The ES of our go-to factory Fiocchi vmax ammo I know for sure is 150 fps+, better than that. I have put lots of it over the chrono.

The one shot that really opened it up was me. I had one cooking in the chamber as my condition started to change, so I rushed it.

I find the 2 stage trigger heavier than my other Tikkas and the eye relief and LOP are too short.

For no load development I think it is ok. I got my AR down to an ES of 35 and consistent submoa with ball powder and new starline brass, but dang it was a ton of effort and testing.

Think I'll try again with 25.0 gr and pick the best one. Ill do more development after the brass has all been fired.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I know how that goes. I acquired a huge amount of 55 Grain Blitz Kings a number of years back on a super special. I'll be shooting those for a few more years out of a rifle or two, along with the V-Maxes.

I remember that special.

I would like a seating depth test.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I remember that special.

I would like a seating depth test.

I agree I should do a seating depth test. It is just a lot of time and effort for my buddies rifle. I should make him come over and load while I drink beer and watch drag racing lol.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Today I tried 25.0gr TAC. There was more wind today and it was consistently from 3 to 3:30. To be clear, I'm holding same POA and just waiting on the condition. Overall I think it shoots the same as 25.5, just more wind today. Interesting they have the exact same ES! It is also shooting consistently .8 higher, despite the lower velocity. Might as well stick to 25.5 I guess.

The more I test large samples, the more I think Hornady is right. Small changes to the load don't do much, at least not unless you and your gun are competitive BR \ fclass.

I have gotten better ES with different ball powder and primer in other guns with new starline brass. However, that lot of brass I FLS and I also lubed the necks before seating bullets. Now I wonder if the extra brass prep would be an improvement, or if its just a lousy primer\powder combo. The new brass has headspace variance of .003 or maybe it was .004, don't remember. I will wait to do seating depth till after the first firing.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Did a pressure test on my gun with n133.

I found jam using the method of seating a dummy round long and lubing the bullet with imperial wax. First time I tried this, and it was way better than the Hornady tool! I backed off jam .017 (cuz cbto is an even number). Tons of room in the MDT AICS mag, but doesn't fit the factory mag.

Hornady book seems way low with max of 23.0@3200.

Vihtavori data is max 24.7@3,337. This seems pretty hot. I got 3,376 with cratering.

First pressure sign was minor cratering at 24.1. Cratering slowly increasing up to 25.0. At 25.0 the slightest ejector mark, have to hold it just right to see it. No other pressure signs, probably cuz the 556 brass.

I noticed the load was compressed at 24.1 I could not hear it when I shake it, but I could at 23.8.

I'm thinking I should test 24.0 to 24.5. What do y'all think?

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Shot 25 rounds of 24.5gr of n133. I think thats good for zero load development. Shot em pretty quick the barrel was toasty in the direct sun. The garmin over heated just after I finished shooting. Might go again tomorrow, I have 25 rounds at 24.0 gr loaded. Wind today and tomorrow are calmest in weeks, but the heat sucks.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Tested 24.0 gr N133. There was someone in my usual spot, so I had to shoot at 120 yards. While the distance is further, the conditions were better. The wind was 0 to 4, and I had wind flags out this time. The es\sd was slightly better, but I bet they would get closer with more shots. Overall looks like 24.5 wins. I think I will try a seating depth test next.

 

[dusterdave173]

Starline 223 brass has less capacity than any other 223 brass I have used--that can have a big influence on things.
I shoot 24.3 N133 , 53 Vmax at around 3250 with Fiocchi brass and either CCI or Federal regular primers- It is amazing!
Clean! Very low es and sd Prairie Dogs nightmare---excellent groups! The 53 in my experience bucks the wind way better than other 50-55g bullets It is one of my favorite bullets in all the reloading I do

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Starline 223 brass has less capacity than any other 223 brass I have used--that can have a big influence on things.
I shoot 24.3 N133 , 53 Vmax at around 3250 with Fiocchi brass and either CCI or Federal regular primers- It is amazing!
Clean! Very low es and sd Prairie Dogs nightmare---excellent groups! The 53 in my experience bucks the wind way better than other 50-55g bullets It is one of my favorite bullets in all the reloading I do

I have read that old starline had lower case capacity, but newer production is closer to other brands now. I am not sure if that is true.

 

[RegionRat]

What I will show is some data I have for both Fiocchi brass and Starline.
The Fiocchi is once fired from their varmint ammo with the 40 VMax. It was cleaned and not resized so this is just weight and not water capacity to keep it fair.
The Starline is virgin and fairly recent.

FWIW: The Fiocchi is 98.6 grains, the Starline is 94.2 grains. YMMV

 

[RabbitSlayer]

What I will show is some data I have for both Fiocchi brass and Starline.
The Fiocchi is once fired from their varmint ammo with the 40 VMax. It was cleaned and not resized so this is just weight and not water capacity to keep it fair.
The Starline is virgin and fairly recent.

FWIW: The Fiocchi is 98.6 grains, the Starline is 94.2 grains. YMMV
View attachment 1598810
View attachment 1598811

I have starline 556 weights for I think 500 pieces. I will post that later.

Hornady said that they found case weight has little correlation to case capacity. Almost all weight variance is in the extractor cut on the case. That seems to agree with either jack neary or lou murdica. I can't remember which one. They said they don't sort, because you don't know where in the case the weight difference is.

There are some youtube videos I think Johnny's Reloading or bolt action reloading. Its an older video and starline did have less case capacity I think it was measured with water.

 

[RegionRat]

I seem to recall that @LVLAaron posted some 223/556 case data that included a variety of headstamps.
I found it.

If someone were to stop with just the ones toward the upper left, and leave out the ones on the lower right, I can see where that might cause confusion. But LVLAaron's data was pretty good and it shows the issues very well. An R^2 value of 0.924 is pretty fair correlation in most discussions. YMMV

 

[RabbitSlayer]

500 pieces starline 556

93.3min
95.7max
94.357 mean
3.1es
0.407 sd
500count