.220 Swift/55 gr. Vmax/low ES

[/VH]

Is anyone shooting low ES velocities in a .220 Swift with 55 gr. Vmax bullets? Would you mind sharing how you do it?

Thanks

 

[40X Guy]

I'm not using the 55 V max in my Swift but am shooting the 55 Nosler BT over H414 with Fed. GMM 210 primers i get an ES of 7. I just annealed and full length sized this twice fired batch of Swift brass and its doing well for me.

Frank

 

[/VH]

Thanks 40X,

By the number of responses to my question, I was starting to think either; it never happens, or it's a well guarded secret.

H414 is a powder that I haven't tried in the .220. Is your velocity fairly consistent through a range of different ambient temperatures or have you tried it much in varying temps?

What brand of brass are you using?

 

[WyleWD]

I shoot both the 50gr Vmax and NBT in my Swift. WW760 powder, Rem 9 1/2 primers and Norma brass. The last time I checked the ES it was just under 10 fps. Not the 55's that you asked for, but felt bad that you didn't get many replies.

Only time I saw much in the way of heat sensitivity was a 100* day in Wyoming a few years back. LOVE that Swift. WD

 

[40X Guy]

Thanks 40X,

By the number of responses to my question, I was starting to think either; it never happens, or it's a well guarded secret.

H414 is a powder that I haven't tried in the .220. Is your velocity fairly consistent through a range of different ambient temperatures or have you tried it much in varying temps?

What brand of brass are you using?

Brian, H414 or Win 760 are both excellent in the Swift and are just about the same powder... I only shoot my Swifts from April until Sept. and have noticed no velocity changes due to temp swings. I am using Winchester brass in my 13 twist Swift and neck turned Norma brass in my 8 twist Swift. You can't go wrong with either... Before I annealed this batch of brass my ES's were over 10 and easily in the 15-20 range. Annealing makes all the difference.. Another good powder is IMR-4064, 38 grains behind a 55 grain bullet will get you 3800 fps.

Frank

 

[/VH]

Thanks to both of you, WD and Frank.

I did probably put a damper on replies by listing the bullet I was trying to use and I appreciate you guys trying to help me out anyway .

So far, I have tried H380, R17, I4064,H4895 & R15 without real good results with any of them. I have been trying to use Erik Cortina's load work up method, which you probably are familiar with, adjusting 1/2 grain per 3 shot group at 100 yds. I did manage a nice little clover leaf with 36.5 gr. of R17 but the vel. was 3348 with an ES of 61. Don't need a Swift for that kind of vel. Also, made a decent group at 36 gr. of I4064 with a vel. of 3645 (almost respectable for a Swift) but the ES was 39 and the groups on either side of this load were over an inch. Do you guys seem to find the powder window to typically be very small with your Swifts?

Last weekend I tried working seating depth with a load of 39.5 gr. of R17 which had previously shown a vel. of 3633 with an ES of 4 (only 3 shots though) and didn't do much good on accuracy. The limited seating depth adjustments that I made didn't seem to have me headed in the right direction, for accuracy. However, just for the heck of it, I loaded three Berger 55 gr. varmint bullets which shot a little under a .4. I may have my answer to the accuracy issue right there and will try some more Bergers just to see.

The reason that I've been trying the Vmaxs is because I am trying to work a load up for a friend of mine and they are what he has, along with about 500 pieces of new Win brass. The price tag on the bullet boxes is stamped $10.19 and I expect the brass if of the same era and may not be of a very good lot. I have used a lot of Win brass in the last several years and have been generally happy with it but every piece of this batch has the mouth so out of square that it's easy to see and I have to trim them about .015" to .020" shorter than trim length to get them squared up. I also suspect they may be too soft or at least inconsistently soft in the head as I have had several with ejector marks, which I can feel being shaved upon opening the bolt, some of these are in the middle powder range when heavier charged cases don't get them. Maybe you guys know of Win brass being sold in bulk several years ago that was actually "seconds". I don't know what the original packaging was but these are now, by my guess, 500 pieces, in one large clear plastic bag. I also wonder if the Vmaxs may have been improved since these were produced, as I have shot a few newer manufactured ones in .22-250 and haven't had lack of accuracy issues with them.

I didn't mean to go on forever, I know some of these things I'll just have to work out but I do appreciate your efforts to steer me in the right direction and I'll give H414/W760 a try. Do you guys find seating depth to be critical with your rifles?

Durn rifles are sometimes nearly as frustrating as my wife but at least when I get fed up and put em in the closet for while they don't beat on the door and holler at me!

 

[WyleWD]

Thanks to both of you, WD and Frank.

So far, I have tried H380, R17, I4064,H4895 & R15 without real good results with any of them. I have been trying to use Erik Cortina's load work up method, which you probably are familiar with, adjusting 1/2 grain per 3 shot group at 100 yds. I did manage a nice little clover leaf with 36.5 gr. of R17 but the vel. was 3348 with an ES of 61. Don't need a Swift for that kind of vel. Also, made a decent group at 36 gr. of I4064 with a vel. of 3645 (almost respectable for a Swift) but the ES was 39 and the groups on either side of this load were over an inch. Do you guys seem to find the powder window to typically be very small with your Swifts?

I've done some load work up on the R-17 a couple years ago and it showed very good promise but I have not revisited it since, and my previous 2 Swifts just LOVED 4064. That being said, and reading the above paragraph leads me to be suspicious that you may not be using enough powder with these two powders..... or at least compared to what I was able to work up to. Mine has a 26" 13 twist Shilen on it..... just for a point of reference. As always, be careful with load work up and if your swift has a 1-9twist or 1-10 twist then that will very probably make your results different with mine.

Regarding the Winchester brass, I've never had any issues with it over the last 35 or so years. On the subject of OAL, I have mine set up to go either single shot (with a follower plate) or magazine fed so am limited to how much I can play with OAL... but cant remember it to be fussy about that. WD

 

[40X Guy]

Brian, my powder window with H414 can change. I ran 42.5 grains in my 13 twist for 3 years at a solid accurate 3,885 fps and it hammered, just 2 weeks ago upon completion of competitive shooting season, I decided to experiment a little by upping powder charge of H414, I tried 3 shots at 42.7 and 3 at 42.9. 42.7 proved to be a scatter node with a group of over an inch, then 42.9 settled in nicely to my required standards. I run the Noslers at .010 off and may still experiment with seating depth but really don't expect to see a lot of difference.

I think if you try some H414 or 760 you will be pleased, start around 42.0 and go up in increment of .3, something will show itself. Also make sure the rifle does not have a carbon fouling issue inherent with high intensity cartridges. My 8 twist Swift carboned up after only 75 rounds and caught me by surprise as I could feel it while patching. I gave it a minor Iosso treatment and all is good. Was using N550 and while accurate and super fast it is dirty and fouls quickly. I can use IMR 4831 in my 8 twist for super accuracy but velocity is a full 250 fps slower! So will revisit a few other powders. One heck of a cartridge! Love the sound when shooting long range, you just know that bullet is moving out!

Also watch the barrel heat while doing load development, I shoot 3 and walk away for 5-10 minutes.

Frank

 

[WyleWD]

+1 on 40x Guy's post.

Gee Frank, it looks like you and I have chased the exact same rabbit so to speak. Your results on everything including N550 are almost identical. Wow. WD

 

[oldtymer35]

Hey Guys - I'm in the process of writing a book about the wonderful .220 Swift and would appreciate any feedback regarding your experiences with it both in the field and in developing loads for the cartridge.

I've been shooting mine (a Ruger Model 77V) since the mid-seventies and still don't think there's a better .22 varmint cartridge. If you are interested, contact me at:

chuckr4549@aol.com

 

[/VH]

WD and Frank, thanks again for your help.

The Lord must be looking out for you guys; I just spent an hour typing a book about my experiences with this rifle and I touched something on this laptop and it disappeared.

I'll try to keep it short this time.

WD,

I've had the same thoughts about not enough powder but have gotten 41gr H380 to 3800 at 58* without pressure signs but at 70*, I had pressure (ejector marks).

Also, been to: 40gr R17/3646, no pressure signs @ 75*.

37.5 gr. I4064/3786 @ 85* - irregular pressure signs

35.5 gr H4895/3772 @78* - pressure

38 gr. R15/3795 @90* - pressure

Only very few decent groups out of all the above.

Frank,

From what I have seen so far and what you state, it sure looks like the powder windows may be quite narrow. I'll keep that in mind.

After visiting with you and WD, re: H414/760, along with what I've seen, re: R17, I'm thinking you guys are onto it with your advice that the slower powder may be what this rifle will tolerate. Also, though I have suspected inferior brass and have felt that it was holding me back on powder charges, I am now thinking that it may very well be telling the truth with the faster powders. I have some 760 and some H414 which I will try. I may also continue some with the R17 and will again try the Bergers in place of the Vmaxs just to see the difference.

What are yall's thoughts on H4350? I have a lot of it, it's supposed to be about the same speed as 760/H414 and less temp sensitive? I really appreciate you sharing your experience, your insight and your help. I'll let you know what my next results are, hopefully I'll get to shoot this weekend.

oldtymer35,

I don't know if these two kind fellows, Frank and WD, are interested in helping with your book but if they are and I were you, I'd value their experience and input.

 

[JORTZ]

Ive used h4350 in 2 different 220 swifts and both were shooting around .25 inch holes at 100 yards. I was using 42 gr and was shooting 3710 out of one gun with es of 10 and 3680 out of the other with es of 13. I was shooting 55gr hornaday vmaxes.
I also shot 60gr hornaday spire points that shot a little better out of both guns but never got around to collecting all the numbers.
At 42.8gr of h4350 i was at max and at that charge i had hard bolt lift and 1 blown primer.

 

[WyleWD]

WD and Frank, thanks again for your help.

What are yall's thoughts on H4350? I have a lot of it, it's supposed to be about the same speed as 760/H414 and less temp sensitive? I really appreciate you sharing your experience, your insight and your help. I'll let you know what my next results are, hopefully I'll get to shoot this weekend.

I tried 4350, but with ww760, or H414, and N550 working so well... I honestly never got excited about it. It's going to be a while before I get back to trying the R-17, but my notes have it to try load work up with a Magnum primer. I got a speed increase, not much pressure, and pretty fair accuracy with the R-17.... definitely within minute of groundhog and coyote..... but would like to start over and see what I get with it.

Good luck and be careful. And BTW, what is the twist rate on your Swift?? WD

 

[40X Guy]

Brian, I tried H4350 also and found nothing to write home about. I try to find best combo of speed and accuracy with my Swifts. As one guy told me years ago, if you want to shoot a 55 grain bullet at 3700 get a 22-250! So I run both mine on ragged edge of pressure, does not affect barrel wear as i may only shoot 6 rounds in an evening hunting chucks.

As Wayne (WyleWD) mentioned about RL-17, I am also going to revisit it in a comparison test with N550 as well in my 8 twist and Mag primers may be the way to go. I have found that this case likes slower powders if you want the performance it is capable of. Especially when shooting heavy bullets.

Frank

 

[johnmyers]

Can't remember exact load but when working up a load for a friends Swift I used H4895 with 50gr Sierra Blitz Kings. I got 3925fps with a 5 shot spread of 9fps and 1/4 inch group at 100yds. Mauser action with Shilen bbl and it is flat and devastating on prarie dogs and coyotes.

 

[/VH]

JORTZ,
Thanks for the info on H4350, I may need to try it in the future as this rifle will be used at temperatures from 0* to 100* and I’m concerned the double based powder may not hold up well to the extremes.

Johnmyers,
Thank you as well. H4895 is one of the powders that I had already tried and was disappointed with due to a lack of accuracy. I have gotten excellent accuracy with H4895 in 22-250, .223. and 6ppc and was surprised by the results in this rifle but I am now convinced that it prefers slower powder.

WD and Frank,
I did get to shoot this weekend. I decided to try H414. Considering my experiences with this rifle and brass, I didn’t have enough guts to start at 42.5 gr. although, I looked in the Hornady, Nosler, Hodgdon, Sierra and Lee manuals and they all max out at around 43.5 – 44 gr. The Berger manual quits at a little over 41 gr. So, I loaded from 40 to 42.5.
Got to the range early Sat. morning but wasn’t the only one there, like usual, so had to set up in coordination with others, didn’t get my chronograph set quite right, so I didn’t get readings on the first group. From a cold, previously fouled barrel, it measured .221”! I was thinking purdy highly of you guys at that point and still do. H414 will work in this rifle, thanks for that advice.
56*
40 gr. - vel.? - ES? - .221
40.3 gr. – 3822 – 28 -.410
40.6 gr. – 3855 – 11 - .910
40.9 gr. – 3888 – 6 – 1.105

I was getting pressure signs, intermittently, from 40.3 gr. on up to 40.9 gr. (rough bolt lift/ejector marks, also a little cratering from 40.6 gr. up but no worse than I have seen on some factory loads though), but chanced it to that point because I had loaded some Berger bullets at that charge which I wanted to try. They shot:

40.9 gr. – 3869 – 29 - .390

I then went home and loaded my way down to 38.8 gr., Sun. morning, they shot:

65*
38.8 gr. – 3682 – 17 – about 5/8”
39.1 gr. – 3704 – 54 – about 1-1/8”
39.4 gr. – 3733 – 11 – about 5/8”
39.7 gr. – 3755 – 10 – about 3/4”
40 gr. – 3805 – 27 - about 3/4”

One other factor that I changed between Sat. and Sun.; I re-checked magazine length and decided to shorten the OAL by about .1”.

WD, I don’t know the twist but will measure it next time I poke a rod in it. I expect it’s a 14. It is a friend of mine’s factory mod. 70 with a heavy, fluted, 26” stainless bbl, some type of plastic or composite stock, aluminum pillars and bedded (more or less), I assume by Winchester. The front and rear walls of the magazine angle toward the butt as they go down, is this common to Swift magazines?

My friend has a ranch in the southwest part of the state and uses it to shoot every coyote he can and whatever else needs shot. Right now, he is busy with elk hunters but I need to get the rifle back to him soon so I am thinking for now, I’ll load him a few with 39.5 gr. and try to tune the seating depth a little. Maybe, next summer I can work with it a little more in higher temperatures, which is what I tried to do this summer, just spent too long with the wrong powders. Do you guys think this load will leave enough slack for hot weather? I’m thinking it will run about 3740 @ 65*.

I know a series of 3 shot groups doesn’t tell me everything, especially about velocity ES but I know it won’t get smaller with more shots. Thanks to your help, I believe I am gaining a little understanding of this rifle and the Swift in general. I’m sure they are all different, as with any chambering but also similar to some extent. I think I’ve learned, at least with this rifle, that the powder windows can be fairly small. I don’t know how much good I’ll get out of tuning seating depth but may learn something there as well. I appreciate all your help.

 

[40X Guy]

Brian, I'd say you are on the right track with the H414, that barrel is giving you some very good velocity numbers with mild charges. If you have the time, try some more groups between 39.5 and 40. in smaller increments. Maybe 39.5, 39.7, and 39.9. Looks like the lo node for that gun. I am running 42.9 H414 in my Swift and getting 3950 fps in a 28 inch barrel. I remember when my Swift was new in mid 90's (Winchester M70 HV with Schneider barrel) the rifle gave me ungodly velocity numbers. Custom barrel actually slowed it down but of course more accurate now. The Winchester boys first chambered the Swift in 1935 and i think they knew what they were doing...

Frank