22 rimfire barrel tuners

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sure, because contrary to your belief that they are exactly the same, the guys that have done an extraordinary amount of rimfire barrel testing are firm in their belief that is not the case. And that is a pretty good handful of them that also generally prove it on paper.
Works for me.

So you can't explain it? Therefore, you should probably not consider yourself as the right person to give instruction on the subject. Simply stating "that's what others do", is not a reason but a copout. There was a time when everyone just knew the world was flat, too. And I've never said rf and cf are EXACTLY the same. Wind drift is much different, for example.

 

[garandman]

So you can't explain it? Therefore, you should probably not consider yourself as the right person to give instruction on the subject. Simply stating "that's what others do", is not a reason but a copout. There was a time when everyone just knew the world was flat, too. And I've never said rf and cf are EXACTLY the same. Wind drift is much different, for example.

His is a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority" which is not a substitute for the explantion you asked for.

 

[Tim s]

So you can't explain it? Therefore, you should probably not consider yourself as the right person to give instruction on the subject. Simply stating "that's what others do", is not a reason but a copout. There was a time when everyone just knew the world was flat, too. And I've never said rf and cf are EXACTLY the same. Wind drift is much different, for example.[/QUOTE


That’s not what I said, and you know this. RF and CF tuning, and RF and CF barrel vibrations, time in barrel.
As far as giving instruction, my comments are based on what WORKS for myself and a hell of a lot of HOF Members over 25 years +, including literally hundreds of state, regional, and national championships and world records.
You have yet to show your methodology a. Works any better, anywhere, b.works on a truly superior barrel which I suspect you may never have seen and finally c. Proving it anywhere anyplace at a reasonably significant competition which, after all, is the point.
I say this, honestly, not to be disparaging......simply, show me.
This is always going to be a Hatfield/McCoy deal but if there’s is one thing I guarantee you, the last thing a brand new guy starting out should do is start right out screwing constantly with a tuner until he assembles a reasonable skill set.

Again, zero comment on sporters which fly directly in the face of twisting.
You going to avoid this forever?

Final thought, I “suspect” based on a lot of issues, some barrels might actually benefit to some degree from this....good/great ones, doubtful.
In that case, you should be looking for a better barrel IMHO.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tim S.
I've never avoided any question regarding tuners, Tim. The very simple answer to your question is that, of course a barrel can be in tune or very near it with the right load/ammo...tuner or not. We've all seen guns that will shoot well with the right load. With cf, you can change the load. With rf, you test ammo until you find the equivalent...Same, same, just a different method of getting to the same place, out of necessity.


You're right about the in bore time of rf vs cf. With typical rf br barrels, vibrational frequency is also lower..err slower. Those two factors do indeed change how I adjust a tuner, a little bit, rf vs cf. To address that as simply as possible, it equates to moving the tuner a little further on a rf than I do on typical cf rifles. I'll quantify that for you...I find that I need to move my rf tuner about 2 marks for every one on my cf and that the tune will repeat at roughly twice the spacing..err marks. It's remarkably consistent! Again, with my tuner I find it to take from 3-5 marks to take virtually every single cf rifle I've ever seen, from completely in tune to completely out of tune. This doubles for a typical rf br rifle, about 10 marks. This represents a half node. A full node cycle will consist of in tune, out and back in again. So, that means there are roughly 20 marks between sweet spots! What's most remarkable about that is just how consistent it is, between considerably different rifles and/or barrel contours used commonly in rf br. Hopefully, this tells you why I strongly advocate very small adjustments rather than grabbing and randomly twisting. Moving more than a couple of marks at a time on a rf leaves you chasing your tail as you skip over those sweet spots.

The rest of your post was gibberish and doesn't warrant further reply or acknowledgment from me. I won't avoid a tuner question. If I don't know,
I'll say so. But what I've said here and other sites is from testing extensively and confirming with vibration analysis.

That's enough for now.

 

[Tim s]

I do appreciate the comments, unfortunately we really have tried (more than a few smiths/shooters) the small increment testing to reveal, basically, not much.
I must be truly blessed because I don’t own guns that go in/out of tune, really ever.
Something goes off the rails and it’s one of two things, ridiculous conditions or all me...I screwed up.
We try , EVERYTHING and always have, you show me improvement or beat me.....I’m all ears.
And whether you realize it or not the reason I ask(as of yet unaddressed) the IR sporter question is that, while you may or may not know it, they do in fact have a tuner set properly by the smith during the build. It is, in effect, non adjustable, but a tuner none the less

 

[Pete Roberson]

Do a search for Purdy Tuning method.
He builds his own with many shooters using them.
If you contact him,
He will work with you to figure the correct setting for your barrel.
Good Luck!!
Pete

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thx, Lee. That's helpful info. Getting ready to re-re-barrel my CZ 457 Action with a Muller 8-groove. (recommended by my 'smith) and will be looking to learn about tuners. I know the 457 isn't the best action (far from it ) but I've already got it and the chassis for it. My 'smith also mentioned getting a different action. Maybe I can sell the Lilja 457. Thinking out loud....

The Lilja barrel did decent, but I'm wanting "more."

Shocker, right?

Garandman, I am not sure what you are after as far as accuracy, but if you are after BR level. I would sell the CZ or use another action. I make this suggestion as you are already wanting better, so get a dedicated BR setup and you will get to where you want to be.
as far as tuners and tuning.
there is a bunch of stuff being posted and I will say this if you look at RFBR like motorcycle racing, Tim. S has done it and still does, some of the others are car racers and might know about car engines and racing them but they are not motorcycle racers, both engines use gasoline but are far different getting them to do what you want and perform. so if you want to race a motorcycle who you going to take advice from?
that make sense?

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I do appreciate the comments, unfortunately we really have tried (more than a few smiths/shooters) the small increment testing to reveal, basically, not much.
I must be truly blessed because I don’t own guns that go in/out of tune, really ever.
Something goes off the rails and it’s one of two things, ridiculous conditions or all me...I screwed up.
We try , EVERYTHING and always have, you show me improvement or beat me.....I’m all ears.
And whether you realize it or not the reason I ask(as of yet unaddressed) the IR sporter question is that, while you may or may not know it, they do in fact have a tuner set properly by the smith during the build. It is, in effect, non adjustable, but a tuner none the less

Gordon Eck has proven this time after time, a sporter barrel properly weighted at the end of the barrel like a tuner will shoot in all conditions

Lee

 

[garandman]

Garandman, I am not sure what you are after as far as accuracy, but if you are after BR level. I would sell the CZ or use another action. I make this suggestion as you are already wanting better, so get a dedicated BR setup and you will get to where you want to be.

Lee

Yeah, Im weighing options. What action would you suggest ?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yeah, Im weighing options. What action would you suggest ?

2500X , Trident or even the new Turbo V-3 if your smith has a Muller it would be best suited for either of these. Favio trigger the new whisper 60% less upward pressure on sear form what Favio had told me.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I have one in my safe waiting for the Falcon it is going on

 

[Tim s]

Gordon Eck has proven this time after time, a sporter barrel properly weighted at the end of the barrel like a tuner will shoot in all conditions

Lee

Well, you know, he’s only the best sporter smith on the planet.
He actually, stopped shooting this year and was nice enough to let me have his personal sporter.....the second time he’s done that for me.

 

[Tim s]

Garandman, I am not sure what you are after as far as accuracy, but if you are after BR level. I would sell the CZ or use another action. I make this suggestion as you are already wanting better, so get a dedicated BR setup and you will get to where you want to be.
as far as tuners and tuning.
there is a bunch of stuff being posted and I will say this if you look at RFBR like motorcycle racing, Tim. S has done it and still does, some of the others are car racers and might know about car engines and racing them but they are not motorcycle racers, both engines use gasoline but are far different getting them to do what you want and perform. so if you want to race a motorcycle who you going to take advice from?
that make sense?

Lee

Very kind, thank you.

 

[Tim s]

I have one in my safe waiting for the Falcon it is going on

Which one are you fitting, if I might ask ?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I do appreciate the comments, unfortunately we really have tried (more than a few smiths/shooters) the small increment testing to reveal, basically, not much.
I must be truly blessed because I don’t own guns that go in/out of tune, really ever.

Powder burning is a chemical reaction, all of which are temperature dependent. To break that down for you, velocity increases as temps go up, decreasing,(your words), in bore time of the bullet. What you're saying is one of two things, neither will you like. Either positive compensation is real, or YOUR barrels all vibrate at a variable frequency, timed exactly with the rate of increase in powder energy. Wow! That's freakin' amazingly coincidental! IOW, you're uninformed at the physics being applied, to put it nicely.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Which one are you fitting, if I might ask ?

Tim, I have the regular Favio and after emails with Favio I got the Whisper model, I haven't put it on the rifle yet.

Lee

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Garandman, I am not sure what you are after as far as accuracy, but if you are after BR level. I would sell the CZ or use another action. I make this suggestion as you are already wanting better, so get a dedicated BR setup and you will get to where you want to be.
as far as tuners and tuning.
there is a bunch of stuff being posted and I will say this if you look at RFBR like motorcycle racing, Tim. S has done it and still does, some of the others are car racers and might know about car engines and racing them but they are not motorcycle racers, both engines use gasoline but are far different getting them to do what you want and perform. so if you want to race a motorcycle who you going to take advice from?
that make sense?

Lee

You are one of the most uninformed on this subject, re, confused in every aspect. You should stop now before you get into water over your head. You were doing fine just sitting back and reading.

 

[Tim s]

Powder burning is a chemical reaction, all of which are temperature dependent. To break that down for you, velocity increases as temps go up, decreasing,(your words), in bore time of the bullet. What you're saying is one of two things, neither will you like. Either positive compensation is real, or YOUR barrels all vibrate at a variable frequency, timed exactly with the rate of increase in powder energy. Wow! That's freakin' amazingly coincidental! IOW, you're uninformed at the physics being applied, to put it nicely.[/QUOTE

just went and checked something I found interesting.
In the IR 50/50 gold level hall of fame out of the top 30 active competitors, I can tell you with certainty, AT LEAST 24 of them don’t move a tuner, the others I simply don’t know. These are the highest level achievers in the BR game.
Good thing they’re not smart like you.[/QUOTE

Also, FWIW, I also compete in CF group matches in, I believe a fairly competent level so I pay lots of attention to all the subject material. You know, for a dumb guy.

 

[Tim s]

Tim, I have the regular Favio and after emails with Favio I got the Whisper model, I haven't put it on the rifle yet.

Lee

Thanks, dumb me, I thought you were talking barrels.
Me, I’m a B&A guy myself, just put another on a new PPC build on a BAT DS.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

[/Q
Tim, you ever shoot against a guy name Nader in CFBR? he doesn't move the tuner once he sets it too
he told me he just adjust the load as the match progresses.

Lee