22 rimfire barrel tuners

[chet]

i am planning to build a tuner for my 22 target rifle, i see there are 2 ways to approach this concept, first is by adding a moveable weight fore and aft, second is the type where there is no weight involved it is turning the tuner in and out, is one method preferred over the other.

chet

 

[1911nut]

This will get real informative..

 

[1813benny]

They are both the same concept. Accurate repeatable settings are key to the design.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

i am planning to build a tuner for my 22 target rifle, i see there are 2 ways to approach this concept, first is by adding a moveable weight fore and aft, second is the type where there is no weight involved it is turning the tuner in and out, is one method preferred over the other.

chet

You will need to have the ability to make repeatable adjustments, regardless of the tuner having the option of adding weight.
FYI the standard of RFBR is the Harrell which has 0.001 adjustments

Lee

 

[garandman]

You will need to have the ability to make repeatable adjustments, regardless of the tuner having the option of adding weight.
FYI the standard of RFBR is the Harrell which has 0.001 adjustments

Lee

Thx, Lee. That's helpful info. Getting ready to re-re-barrel my CZ 457 Action with a Muller 8-groove. (recommended by my 'smith) and will be looking to learn about tuners. I know the 457 isn't the best action (far from it ) but I've already got it and the chassis for it. My 'smith also mentioned getting a different action. Maybe I can sell the Lilja 457. Thinking out loud....

The Lilja barrel did decent, but I'm wanting "more."

Shocker, right?

 

[natdscott]

There's no reason for more thought here...

Call Killough, and get a Harrell bored for you, and in the mail.

Pending the contour, you may also need a stack of the removable stainless weights to be able to get enough tuner out front. Also Killough.

Tips:

--Tune it 0.100" at a time with cheaper ammo of the same type and velocity.
--Then back into the nearest 0.050" at a time, arguably with your better ammo.
--From there, go to 10's and then to the nearest 0.001". Once "THE" tune is achieved, you need to remember it is much like a "zero"....it's MOBILE. You WILL have to change it a little day-to-day, and certainly with ammo changes lot-to-lot.
--DON'T over-torque the mount screws. The key in getting them not to move is CAREFUL measurement of your barrel's muzzle with a 0.0005" Micrometer, and boring that is equally careful.
--You DO need a low in/lb torque wrench for correct mounting.

-Nate

 

[garandman]

Tips:

--Tune it 0.100" at a time with cheaper ammo of the same type and velocity.
--Then back into the nearest 0.050" at a time, arguably with your better ammo.

-Nate

I don't know anything at all about tuners, so this is really question, not a statement....

But does tuning with the ammo yer not gonna be compoeting with make sense? Velocity, pressure, lubes, even lot numbers will all create variables that change harmonics. Does tuning with one ammo eally help me tune to a different ammo?

Honest question.

 

[natdscott]

No doubt, but early on, you're just trying to get "close" to the barrel's tune without spending a shitload of $18 ammo.

As long as it's pretty close to the same speed and load, you're gonna be really close.

Keep in mind that the TUNE itself is +/- about a click... or 0.001" on the Harrell, whereas you are adjusting at one HUNDRED TIMES that when you're using Eley Match to tune for Eley TENEX, or SK S+ to tune for Rifle Match.


ETA: Just remember when you change wax types or brands, to run a bunch of rounds before you give 100% credence to a test group. Every barrel is different about this, as is each ammo, and some don't shoot well enough to see it.

I've not seen one of my barrels need more than 15-20 rounds to settle down after a change in ammo, but it's been said that some can take up to a full box.

 

[Fotheringill]

Garandman-

Have you figured out the cost of smith, barrel, tuner, extras and doo-dads for the 457 (including initial cost of rifle?

 

[garandman]

Garandman-

Have you figured out the cost of smith, barrel, tuner, extras and doo-dads for the 457 (including initial cost of rifle?

Sending IM.

 

[Tim s]

Lots of what’s been mentioned is pretty much spot on.
Unless you’re really motivated as a DIY’er you are not going to improve on a Harrels, doubtful you need any weights and although this is always controversial for quite a while, maybe ever, do NOT become a “ tuner twister”.
I cannot tell you how many newbies I’ve seen that spend their whole leves chasing their tail with this instead of learning how to shoot.
I’ve been lucky enough to shoot in a lot of State, regional, national, matches with some of the greats.....they don’t move their tuners.

 

[Tim s]

No doubt, but early on, you're just trying to get "close" to the barrel's tune without spending a shitload of $18 ammo.

As long as it's pretty close to the same speed and load, you're gonna be really close.

Keep in mind that the TUNE itself is +/- about a click... or 0.001" on the Harrell, whereas you are adjusting at one HUNDRED TIMES that when you're using Eley Match to tune for Eley TENEX, or SK S+ to tune for Rifle Match.


ETA: Just remember when you change wax types or brands, to run a bunch of rounds before you give 100% credence to a test group. Every barrel is different about this, as is each ammo, and some don't shoot well enough to see it.

I've not seen one of my barrels need more than 15-20 rounds to settle down after a change in ammo, but it's been said that some can take up to a full box.

if you have a good barrel and know how to clean it properly, it’s ready to go with no more than 5-10 shots......you can take that to the bank.

 

[garandman]

if you have a good barrel and know how to clean it properly, it’s ready to go with no more than 5-10 shots......you can take that to the bank.

That's been my experience with my Vudoo and even the Lilja. 4-5th shots go wonky, 6 - 7 - 8 basically fall back in the group. 9 - 10 are spot on. Vudoo themselves says it could be 20-25 rounds.


I'll not tell other people their experiences haven't happenned to them.

 

[garandman]

I’ve been lucky enough to shoot in a lot of State, regional, national, matches with some of the greats.....they don’t move their tuners.

I was guessing once you get your "tune" you really don't mess with it much in the middle of a match. Or ever, really. Is that accurate?

 

[jpx2rk]

I was guessing once you get your "tune" you really don't mess with it much in the middle of a match. Or ever, really. Is that accurate?

Correct, BUT some people/competitors will adjust for weather conditions, etc. during a match. It's easy to make a tuner change and see if it works for the weather conditions (temp changes/humidity), but then you need to remember the reverse those adjustments otherwise you'll wonder WTH the next time you shoot and the results are not up to the norm.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Lots of what’s been mentioned is pretty much spot on.
Unless you’re really motivated as a DIY’er you are not going to improve on a Harrels, doubtful you need any weights and although this is always controversial for quite a while, maybe ever, do NOT become a “ tuner twister”.
I cannot tell you how many newbies I’ve seen that spend their hole leves chasing their tail with this instead of learning how to shoot.
I’ve been lucky enough to shoot in a lot of State, regional, national, matches with some of the greats.....they don’t move their tuners.

Just the opposite in cf. If you can explain why that is, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Tim s]

Just the opposite in cf. If you can explain why that is, I'd love to hear it.

Sure, because contrary to your belief that they are exactly the same, the guys that have done an extraordinary amount of rimfire barrel testing are firm in their belief that is not the case. And that is a pretty good handful of them that also generally prove it on paper.
Works for me.

 

[Tim s]

I was guessing once you get your "tune" you really don't mess with it much in the middle of a match. Or ever, really. Is that accurate?

Never.

 

[natdscott]

if you have a good barrel and know how to clean it properly, it’s ready to go with no more than 5-10 shots......you can take that to the bank.

You did notice that I said "not more than"... right?



-Nate

 

[Tim s]

Sure, because contrary to your belief that they are exactly the same, the guys that have done an extraordinary amount of rimfire barrel testing are firm in their belief that is not the case. And that is a pretty good handful of them that also generally prove it on paper.
Works for me.[/QUOTE

P.S. we now have had this running little conversation for some time Mike.
At the risk of getting redundant you have never answered my one consistent question.......why do the better IR sporters shoot so consistently well in widely changing conditions, all with an inability to change what is essentially, a tuner on the end ??