22-250AI Problems-Updated

[xswanted]

Hello all,

I have a 22-250 AI 8 twist built off a Remington action.

It’s about 6 years old and has been shot quite a bit, I’m unsure of the round count but I’m guessing between 600-1000

Recently it’s been fairly erratic.

However can’t decide if I have a scope issue or as the barrel heats up it goes everywhere and it’s a barrel issue.

I can zero at 200 yards.....click up to 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 yards and have impacts on my gongs. Tonight , for example after the 800 yard I clicked back down to 400 and shot and missed quite low (using same DOPE) Then clicked back up and shot at 500 and missed quite low again (using same DOPE I had just hit with)

I was shooting tonight at dusk. No mirage, no wind on my home range.

Shot at the 200 yard zero target and was around 3 MOA low.


The barrel has quite a bit of heat to it at this point, not crazy hot but it’s warm.

I found yesterday that the rear base is drilled crooked and thus my scope wasnt sitting in the rings true.

However I’ve now had the same results using

-3 different scopes
-2 different sets of rings
-a picatinny rail
-weaver bases
-2 different bullets
-5 different powder charges, 3 of which were prior proven loads

And have had the same results with it all.

So I’m confused if it’s barrel or scope or mounts.


I’m lost. I’m thinking the barrel is shot. However signs seems to point to a scope but I’ve tried 3 different optics and numerous mounting types.

The only thing I have left to try is shoot a 15-20 shot string ( roughly same amount of shots I’ve been shooting with it) at 100 yards to see if it indeed becomes erratic without clicking a scope up and down.


Any ideas??

I’m stumped.

 

[boltfluter]

This may be way out there, but make sure barrel is tight to the receiver. A buddy had a similar experience to yours. You might also check the torque on your action screws as well. Just a thought.

Paul

 

[AckleymanII]

There are a couple of obvious things that could be causing these problems.

Loss of velocity is normal when the barrel's throat gets worn a bit. Not only does the throat get worn in length as the leade grows, but the diameter also grows. Often adding .5-1.0g more powder will solve the problem...to a point...then time to send the gun in for a new barrel.

Adjust your seating depth for throat wear, we are constantly "chasing the lands", seating the bullet out further and further.

The most common problem is a carbon fouled barrel. Good bronze bristle brushes used in conjunction with JB will clear the carbon out down to bare metal.

So, clean the barrel down to bare metal, check your OAL to the lands (compare notes as to when the barrel was new), Check your velocity and compare notes as to what it was when the barrel was new. If you see a big loss in velocity at this time, then try adding more powder.

Usually the fast twist 22/250 AI will get 900-1200 rounds before the barrel is toast.

Brownells has the Lyman bore scope on sale now for a very good price $174 shipped. This is a very, very good tool to have.

Good luck!

 

[xswanted]

This may be way out there, but make sure barrel is tight to the receiver. A buddy had a similar experience to yours. You might also check the torque on your action screws as well. Just a thought.

Paul

I haven’t checked the barrel but at this point I’ll try anything.

Action screws are good.

Thank you!

 

[xswanted]

There are a couple of obvious things that could be causing these problems.

Loss of velocity is normal when the barrel's throat gets worn a bit. Not only does the throat get worn in length as the leade grows, but the diameter also grows. Often adding .5-1.0g more powder will solve the problem...to a point...then time to send the gun in for a new barrel.

Adjust your seating depth for throat wear, we are constantly "chasing the lands", seating the bullet out further and further.

The most common problem is a carbon fouled barrel. Good bronze bristle brushes used in conjunction with JB will clear the carbon out down to bare metal.

So, clean the barrel down to bare metal, check your OAL to the lands (compare notes as to when the barrel was new), Check your velocity and compare notes as to what it was when the barrel was new. If you see a big loss in velocity at this time, then try adding more powder.

Usually the fast twist 22/250 AI will get 900-1200 rounds before the barrel is toast.

Brownells has the Lyman bore scope on sale now for a very good price $174 shipped. This is a very, very good tool to have.

Good luck!

I’ve been running my lab radar while doing this and there isn’t any major velocity changes. It’s very puzzling.

The barrel is cooper fouling much more than before however.

Carbon could also be a culprit, I haven’t had a good thorough carbon cleaning date with this thing in awhile. I suppose as the barrel heats up, if it’s full of carbon, it could cause some problems.

 

[Hoodoo]

I’ve been running my lab radar while doing this and there isn’t any major velocity changes. It’s very puzzling.

The barrel is cooper fouling much more than before however.

Carbon could also be a culprit, I haven’t had a good thorough carbon cleaning date with this thing in awhile. I suppose as the barrel heats up, if it’s full of carbon, it could cause some problems.

Sounds to me like your barrel has run it's course. 1000 rounds on a 22-250 is getting towards the end of it's life. I would check your distance to lands, and make your determination based on that. If you've already tried 3 different scopes, bases, etc I would rule out that it's a scope/base issue.

 

[AckleymanII]

XS wanted, cleaning these fire breathing monsters that are over bore takes some serious cleaning skills. Many guys get introduced to carbon fouling with these over bore cases, especially the fast twist rascals.

Good bronze bristle brushes and JB, will get your bore down to bare metal. Reapply JB every 10 strokes, don't be stingy with the JB. This should be considered a maximum effort due to carbon build up.

A regular regiment of cleaning with a tight fitting patch and JB would keep the massive accumulations of carbon from building up, perhaps every 250 rounds. I use this technique of saturating 5 patches with JB and short stroking with each patch. A Lucas or Neil Jones rod guide keeps the rod from lapping the lands smooth from 8 to 5 o'clock in the throat...bushing on the rod that fits in the back of the rod guide is critical in keeping the rod centered in the bore. Carefully and deliberately push and pull the rod back and forth, which will keep the rod from flexing in the bore as much as possible.

I hope you can get a Lyman bore scope, and you will become your own expert.

Good luck!

 

[xswanted]

XS wanted, cleaning these fire breathing monsters that are over bore takes some serious cleaning skills. Many guys get introduced to carbon fouling with these over bore cases, especially the fast twist rascals.

Good bronze bristle brushes and JB, will get your bore down to bare metal. Reapply JB every 10 strokes, don't be stingy with the JB.

I hope you can get a Lyman bore scope, and you will become your own expert.

Good luck!

I’ve had some bad carbon experiences in the past. You might be right, it might carboned up beyond belief.

I have access to a Hawkeye borescope so I might need to take a quick trip to town and have a look.

 

[AckleymanII]

Clean it best you can before you go over to use the bore scope.

 

[linebaugh]

I fully agree with the small bores, heavies and high powder volumes causing carbon foul.
I do not use JB and a brush but I am going to try it now. I use a bronze brush with Butch's because I am convinced carbon cleaners are snake oil. After a soak and 10-20 strokes with the brush I patch it out. Then I use JB with Kroil on a patch and change the patch out every five to 10 strokes reversed in the bbl. I have a hand built guide that lets me pull out of the chamber and back into the bbl with the patch intact. (Usually)

I can also tell you if you do not have a bore scope you will never know how much carbon you are leaving and it is a bunch. I never get all mine out because I am not an over acheiver and I don't feel it necessary.

If you have a decent carbon deposit you can many times feel it at the throat area when pulling back through.

I have had carbon foul so bad it will blow bullets in flight and also blow primers.

No idea what your real problem is but unless you run a lot of high strings of fire on a hot bbl I doubt you are burned out but you never really know I guess. Best of luck.

 

[Clancy]

I can’t see a barrel going out that quickly. I know some guys that have taken them beyond 2,000 rounds. Heck, my 22 Lapua is knocking on 1,000 and will still regularly shoot low .2s.

I do think that you’ve absolutely got to keep carbon buildup out of your bore. I use JB as well. It’s great. I stroke it through the barrel (back and forth in the throat as well as full length) and watch the color change on my patches until I can run JB and the patch comes out light gray, like the JB.

First few times I did this I verified with a Hawkeye and it was damn near perfect every time.

Sure, you can clean with solvents and get clean patches, but hit it with JB and they’re back to jet black until it’s clean....

I use a carbon solvent every 50-80 rounds and JB every 200 or so , works great.

Good luck.

 

[linebaugh]

I can’t see a barrel going out that quickly. I know some guys that have taken them beyond 2,000 rounds. Heck, my 22 Lapua is knocking on 1,000 and will still regularly shoot low .2s.

I do think that you’ve absolutely got to keep carbon buildup out of your bore. I use JB as well. It’s great. I stroke it through the barrel (back and forth in the throat as well as full length) and watch the color change on my patches until I can run JB and the patch comes out light gray, like the JB.

First few times I did this I verified with a Hawkeye and it was damn near perfect every time.

Sure, you can clean with solvents and get clean patches, but hit it with JB and they’re back to jet black until it’s clean....

I use a carbon solvent every 50-80 rounds and JB every 200 or so , works great.

Good luck.

I just changed back to 95gr sierras last night in my 22-250AI and did the math on my shot count. I have at a minimum 1000 rounds under very harsh conditions. My throat has erroded out some, which is why I am doing the 95's now, but the gun will still easily shoot under half inch at any given time.
I clean the heck out of my bbl after every match which is typically 80 rounds plus any drop verification before a match. So around 100 rounds between cleanings. I am careful about how I clean but I do get very aggressive with the JB paste.

If anyone tells me I am over cleaning and going to ruin my bbl from cleaning it I just smile at them... especially later when theybare having dirty gun issues and lost accuracy.

Sure am hoping that cleaning the begeesus out of your bbl fixes the problem.

 

[Clancy]

Yea I really don’t think JB is going to hurt if used within reason. I have literally showed people at the range a group, clean with JB right in front of them, then shot a group half that size and they still maintain that I’m ruining my barrel.... go figure.

 

[xswanted]

I fully agree with the small bores, heavies and high powder volumes causing carbon foul.
I do not use JB and a brush but I am going to try it now. I use a bronze brush with Butch's because I am convinced carbon cleaners are snake oil. After a soak and 10-20 strokes with the brush I patch it out. Then I use JB with Kroil on a patch and change the patch out every five to 10 strokes reversed in the bbl. I have a hand built guide that lets me pull out of the chamber and back into the bbl with the patch intact. (Usually)

I can also tell you if you do not have a bore scope you will never know how much carbon you are leaving and it is a bunch. I never get all mine out because I am not an over acheiver and I don't feel it necessary.

If you have a decent carbon deposit you can many times feel it at the throat area when pulling back through.

I have had carbon foul so bad it will blow bullets in flight and also blow primers.

No idea what your real problem is but unless you run a lot of high strings of fire on a hot bbl I doubt you are burned out but you never really know I guess. Best of luck.

What are guys looking for with carbon in the bore scope?

 

[linebaugh]

What are guys looking for with carbon in the bore scope?

I try to get the bulk of it out especially in the throat area. I do not spend the time to get mine down to bare metal or gone completely. A few streaks along the lands does not bother me as long as I can get the bulk of it out. Many times I will have a very thin carbon line right along the lands all the way down and I consider this acceptable also.

If you have a scope you will see it the worst in the throat to the forst couple inches. You will even be able to see a carbon ring if you have one and/or ridges and chunks of carbon for lack of a better description. This is the carbon that I am personally most concerned with but I also want the bulk of it out of the rest of my bbl also.

Was that clear as mud?

 

[xswanted]

I try to get the bulk of it out especially in the throat area. I do not spend the time to get mine down to bare metal or gone completely. A few streaks along the lands does not bother me as long as I can get the bulk of it out. Many times I will have a very thin carbon line right along the lands all the way down and I consider this acceptable also.

If you have a scope you will see it the worst in the throat to the forst couple inches. You will even be able to see a carbon ring if you have one and/or ridges and chunks of carbon for lack of a better description. This is the carbon that I am personally most concerned with but I also want the bulk of it out of the rest of my bbl also.

Was that clear as mud?

Ha! Thank you yes it actually is pretty clear.

I think after scoping this rifle there is a carbon ring.

I cleaned tonight with Boretech carbon remover, then moved to Wipe Out and left sit. Cleaned that out and scrubbed with JB and then scoped it.

The throat looks rough compared to a few other rifles I have. The rifling starts about .5” from where a carbon ring would form which seems like it’s a long ways to me. Possibly from wearing back??

Then for about 8” in front of the chamber there is a steak of copper on every land/grove junction as well some light carbon in the groves.

I’m letting it soak overnight with wipeout.....I’ve had good luck with that on other rifles for copper then I’ll clean with JB once again and scope again.

 

[linebaugh]

I remember cleaning a gun to what i thought was pristine and then I got a bore scope and had a look. Not even close. Lol.
There is still a lot to learn I am certain but that was one of the big lessons I never have forgotten. A bore scope will literally change the way you clean... or at least it did for me.

 

[Clancy]

Ha! Thank you yes it actually is pretty clear.

I think after scoping this rifle there is a carbon ring.

I cleaned tonight with Boretech carbon remover, then moved to Wipe Out and left sit. Cleaned that out and scrubbed with JB and then scoped it.

The throat looks rough compared to a few other rifles I have. The rifling starts about .5” from where a carbon ring would form which seems like it’s a long ways to me. Possibly from wearing back??

Then for about 8” in front of the chamber there is a steak of copper on every land/grove junction as well some light carbon in the groves.

I’m letting it soak overnight with wipeout.....I’ve had good luck with that on other rifles for copper then I’ll clean with JB once again and scope again.

That thing ate 1/2” of rifling in that few rounds? Try a 22 Lapua when you rebarrel. Mine has moved about .007 in just under 1,000. I do not get it hot, no need to.

 

[xswanted]

That thing ate 1/2” of rifling in that few rounds? Try a 22 Lapua when you rebarrel. Mine has moved about .007 in just under 1,000. I do not get it hot, no need to.

Well that’s what I’m trying to figure out.

I measure it by lining the edge of the borescope image on the ring.....had my wife make a mark on the bore scope rod then I move the scope down until I was even with the rifling at the same spot in the scope. She made another mark.

I did this three times.

Lowest measurement was .377 largest measurement was .502

I don’t if that’s very scientific but it’s the easiest way I had to measure it. However I have no reference to what it was when it was new on this same distance.

 

[xswanted]

Thanks for all the replies guys,

I spent quite some time cleaning this gun and bore scoping it.

It had a lot of carbon in the dreaded carbon ring area as well as in the throat and just past.

I cleaned until I got down to metal.

I loaded 25 rounds and went and shot.

The first ten were shot into one group, which after a few fowlers turned into a good group.

I then clicked up 5, 10 and 15 MOA at 100 yards on consecutive shots. When that was done my 10 moa group and my 15 moa group we’re three shots in one ragged hole.

The 5 moa group was jus over a half.

I then shot the remaining rounds into a group 5 shots.

The last group started to stray low. It wasn’t a good group. However the barrel was very hot st this point, which I wanted to have happen.

I think the barrel has got life in it yet. It certainly doesn’t shoot well after a long string. It’s a #5 Douglas so it’s not very heavy.

I’ll see how it goes from here

Thank you again