I and my son have shot and reloaded 22 250's for some 20+ years and still have a couple of nice Tikkas....that being said, I've gone to the 22BR for about 4 years now and would never go back. I have an 8 twist barrel that shoots the 75 to 80 grainers extremely well and can shoot lighter bullets every bit as good as the 22 250 ever did. No more donuts, stretched cases and better accuracy and consistancy and barrel life. Hit a groundhog out to 500 and 600 yards with a 75gr Amax and it is not only easy to do with less wind drift but has very explosive results. Also have a close friend that has done the same and feels the same. Admittedly, the 6BR is no slouch either but I like the extra BC of the .224s up to the 80gr bullet weight range. Best to you whatever you decide.
22/250 vs 6BR Norma
- Thread starter Remfarmer
- Start date
Remfarmer, I'd like to know your secret in getting a 22-250 to last 5,000 rds. Something special?
Nothing against the 22/250, I Have one and like it, Its just that I don't see them being shot from the benches at the matches for consistant accuracy [no wind flags here]. I guess you got me there catshooter and bheadboy [not enough time in the fields ]. Maybe they can be accurate and deadly with the heavies but I still would shoot the 6BR for the best accuracy. I gotta go with what will put bullets in the 10 ring and have the longest barrel life, that will work for me.
Attachments
CatShooter
snowpro440 said:
This thread was not about building a match rifle, it was about making a groundhog rifle.
swed6.5
X1ON
Build a switch barrel and do both,however if bullets get any harder to find there is more 6mm to be found, all are good. I just switched up to a dasher after i thaught nothing could outshhot my br. I found the dasher cases almost never stretch, less time spent trimming. depending on the distance of where you hunt i would favor a tighter rifling twist so you can reach em further with a heavier pill. Good luck
+1 for the 6BR...
Kermit
Kermit
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
This thread was started to ask if the 6BR would be a good replacement for a 22-250. And it is a great replacement. Better barrel life, better accuracy, and better bullets. A+ on swed6.5 switch barrel, also on the 6Dasher. I shoot the 6BRX, great round also. My guns, do will at the bench and in the field. I have shot groundhog for 40 years, with about everything from a 22LR to a 7mmMag. I have had many well made 22-250 and 22-250AI, shooting light and heavy bullets, on Factory and custom actions, and 6mmAI as well.I will pick the 6BR and 6BR IMP's everytime.
Mark Schronce
Mark Schronce
I never had a 22-250 but I have seen several shooters struggling to work up loads. Some may shoot good some don't. A custom barrel helps a lot. I shoot a 6BR 1:14 twist. I suspect one advantage is all 6BRs shoot small groups. As for ability at distance I ran some numbers though Berger's ballistic program. I plugged in 250 yrd. for sight in.
Bullet drop and wind drift at 500yrds. 10 MPH wind 9 o'clock. I rounded to a whole number. Guess which one looks the best.
BC Velocity Drop Wind Drift (inches)
.22 55 gr. Berger Varmint bullet .210 3700 37 40
6BR 69 gr. Berger Varmint bullet .291 3350 35 29
6BR 88 gr. Berger Varmint Bullet .391 2950 38 24
Bullet drop and wind drift at 500yrds. 10 MPH wind 9 o'clock. I rounded to a whole number. Guess which one looks the best.
BC Velocity Drop Wind Drift (inches)
.22 55 gr. Berger Varmint bullet .210 3700 37 40
6BR 69 gr. Berger Varmint bullet .291 3350 35 29
6BR 88 gr. Berger Varmint Bullet .391 2950 38 24
Webster said:
I have no experience with the 6br, so I don't have anything useful to offer on that side of things. I have some experience with the 22-250, so I will throw what I know out there to muddy the waters a bit.
For the sake of comparison, I am going to use the numbers that Webster posted. Webster, I apologize in advance if it looks like I am picking on you. That is not my intent. I hope that you don't mind my using your examples.
There are some .224 bullets out there that have the potential to be game changers if you have the correct twist. If you are going to re-barrel your 22-250, forget the 14 twist. It is obsolete.
A 12 twist will allow you to shoot bullets like the 55g Sierra Blitzking (.271 bc), Berger 55g Match flat base (.262 bc) and especially the Hornady 53g VMAX (.290 bc). With the latest powders, all of these bullets can be driven very close to 3900fps with very good accuracy. At 22-250 velocities, all of these bullets will easily outperform the 69g Berger from a 6mm br as cited above. Even shooting factory Hornady Superformance ammo with the 50g VMAX (.242 bc) @ 4000fps, the 22-250 smokes BOTH 6br loads cited above by a wide margin in terms of trajectory, while staying even with the lighter of the two 6br loads in terms of wind drift. I am currently shooting a 22-250 with a 12 twist Shilen barrel and it shoots this Hornady load (along with everything else I've fed it) into one ragged hole.
In fact, even a lowly .223 with factory Hornady ammo, in terms of velocity, trajectory, and wind drift, will outperformthe 6br in the 69g Berger loading and run step for step with the 88g Berger loading (I am citing the Superformance 53g VMAX @ 3465 and the Superformance 75g BTHP @2930 respectively).
If you step up to an 8 twist in the 22-250, you can launch a 75g AMAX @ 3150ish. Plug those numbers into a ballsitic calculator and there is no contest. You won't even be playing the same sport.
As for accuracy issues with the 22-250, there are some potential pitfalls. IME and from comparing notes with other 22-250 shooters, for some reason most factory 22-250's have excessive freebore (mine was in the neighborhood of .250"). Excessive freebore and the crappy 14 twist in most factory rifles has a tendency to really kill its performance. Since you are preparing to install an aftermarket barrel, you have the opportunity to control the variables that cause accuracy problems in the 22-250. If you go with a good quality barrel, make sure the chamber is properly cut, and choose an appropriate twist, there is likely to be very little difference in accuracy between the 6br and the 22-250 under field conditions.
If barrel life is your #1 concern, then by all means, go 6br. If ballistic performance is what you want, the 22-250 walks all over the stated numbers for the 6br. Can you outperform the 22-250 with a 6mm? Absolutely! Go with a fast twist, heavier bullets, and a bigger case. But, the barrel life advantage goes away too.
All in all, for bullets in the 50-75g weight range, I think the 22-250 is pretty tough to beat.
CatShooter
Webster said:
I think you "Cherry picked" your numbers to make your case for the 6mmBR look good - I have ping-pong balls with better BCs than .210.
That is a poor way to try to make a case.
As to people "Struggling to work up loads"... are you talking about people with custom barrels in custom rifles - I somehow doubt it. The reason that all 6mmBRs shoot well is because they are ALL custom, or come from custom departments of factories.
Not good arguments for your side.
I owned a bone stock Savage 12BVSS in 22-250. It was not hard at all to tune. The left group pictured was 55 Nosler BTs pushed with RL-15. The right group was 55 VMax pushed with W760. 100 yards shot from a portable bench. MV was over 3800 fps for both.
My Marine grandson killed a groundhog at 882 yards with the Nosler load. Definitely the limit of a 55 grain bullet shot from a 22-250. The bullet may have hit the groundhog bass-ackwards for all we know, but it was dead none the less.
But I wanted to shoot longer so that Savage now sports a 6mmXC barrel. (It also has a 243 AI barrel coming.) And shooting longer has been a success with two groundhog kills last summer of over 1000 yards.
I'm not sure why the OP wants to limit the comparison to 22-250 and 6BR. Kind of like comparing a sports car to the family van. Anyway, I would like to quote a sentence from the 6XC description in the Berger manual. "Norma test results have shown that the 6XC is a more inherently accurate round than the 6BR."
My Marine grandson killed a groundhog at 882 yards with the Nosler load. Definitely the limit of a 55 grain bullet shot from a 22-250. The bullet may have hit the groundhog bass-ackwards for all we know, but it was dead none the less.
But I wanted to shoot longer so that Savage now sports a 6mmXC barrel. (It also has a 243 AI barrel coming.) And shooting longer has been a success with two groundhog kills last summer of over 1000 yards.
I'm not sure why the OP wants to limit the comparison to 22-250 and 6BR. Kind of like comparing a sports car to the family van. Anyway, I would like to quote a sentence from the 6XC description in the Berger manual. "Norma test results have shown that the 6XC is a more inherently accurate round than the 6BR."
I hope we can discuss things on this website without dumping on each other. We each have different shooting experiences and cash put into our rifles.
I didn’t cherry pick the numbers, I just entered a few bullets into the ballistics program. Just entered some of the 75 GR high BC as you suggested and other bullets. I was surprised at how good the 75 GR high BC was. Traditionally it looks like the factories promoted and loaded the 50, 52 & 55 GR bullets because speed sells. Looks like 75 GR is the way to go.
Still like my 6BR for ease of loading, accuracy and barrel life. I seldom shoot past 350 yd. I use a laser range finder and make a range card for the farms I hunt on. My rifle is sighted in at 275 yd. so the bullet is never more than about 2†high or low out to 300 yrds. My scope has an external micrometer head so I just hold under/over or adjust dead on. Never had wind problems. For distance shooting the high BC with less wind drift is probably the way to go. You can easily correct for distance at a known distance for targets and use a laser for field work but wind is always a problem.
Most of the stores don’t have a good selection of bullets. Kelbly’s is 40 minutes from my house he has a small selection of Bart’s and Berger bullets. I bought 500 68 GR Bart Ultra bullets last year from his website (~$13 shipping). Also bought 200 Bart’s 68 GR BT at the Super Shoot. Some of the factory bullets shoot well for me in 6BR (58 GR Hornady VMax and Sierra 70 GR HPBT).
The 6BR and 6 Dasher have set many distance records. The 22-250 doesn’t hold any. Thought I would end it with a zinger, don’t get offended.
I didn’t cherry pick the numbers, I just entered a few bullets into the ballistics program. Just entered some of the 75 GR high BC as you suggested and other bullets. I was surprised at how good the 75 GR high BC was. Traditionally it looks like the factories promoted and loaded the 50, 52 & 55 GR bullets because speed sells. Looks like 75 GR is the way to go.
Still like my 6BR for ease of loading, accuracy and barrel life. I seldom shoot past 350 yd. I use a laser range finder and make a range card for the farms I hunt on. My rifle is sighted in at 275 yd. so the bullet is never more than about 2†high or low out to 300 yrds. My scope has an external micrometer head so I just hold under/over or adjust dead on. Never had wind problems. For distance shooting the high BC with less wind drift is probably the way to go. You can easily correct for distance at a known distance for targets and use a laser for field work but wind is always a problem.
Most of the stores don’t have a good selection of bullets. Kelbly’s is 40 minutes from my house he has a small selection of Bart’s and Berger bullets. I bought 500 68 GR Bart Ultra bullets last year from his website (~$13 shipping). Also bought 200 Bart’s 68 GR BT at the Super Shoot. Some of the factory bullets shoot well for me in 6BR (58 GR Hornady VMax and Sierra 70 GR HPBT).
The 6BR and 6 Dasher have set many distance records. The 22-250 doesn’t hold any. Thought I would end it with a zinger, don’t get offended.
I agree with you about being careful not to dump on one another in our discussions. I apologize if you felt dumped on. I wish to reiterate that was not the intent of my post.
I don't see your statement about the 6br and 6dasher and the long distance records they hold as a zinger. It is a statement of fact. It is also of questionable relevance to varmint shooting.
If we both hit a groundhog at 500 yards with our respective rifles, no one gets extra credit for being half an inch closer to center mass. Likewise, in varmint shooting, once one achieves a certain level of accuracy (I would submit that a good minimum would be about .5MOA), hit probability is more likely to be determined by the nut behind the trigger than by small differences in inherent cartridge accuracy.
The 22-250 was conceived as a varmint cartridge. It has dominated that niche for a long time and still represents the gold standard to which other varmint cartridges are compared.
The 6br and 6 Dasher were conceived as benchrest cartridges and are no doubt excellent cartridges for that purpose. Can they function well as varmint cartridges? Of course they can and they do. But, that doesn't mean that they are the best choice for a niche outside of their initial purpose.
Though a certain level of accuracy is needed in the varmint fields, high velocities and flat trajectories are important as well. Your point about wind drift is well taken and the 22-250 delivers on that, too.
One final idea that I would like to add to the discussion is that of going with a 22-250AI. There is quite a bit of performance to be gained in the 22-250 by going this route, especially with heavy bullets. Check out Sierra's data and you will see what I mean. A fast twist 22-250AI would make for a pretty mean groundhog killing machine!
I don't see your statement about the 6br and 6dasher and the long distance records they hold as a zinger. It is a statement of fact. It is also of questionable relevance to varmint shooting.
If we both hit a groundhog at 500 yards with our respective rifles, no one gets extra credit for being half an inch closer to center mass. Likewise, in varmint shooting, once one achieves a certain level of accuracy (I would submit that a good minimum would be about .5MOA), hit probability is more likely to be determined by the nut behind the trigger than by small differences in inherent cartridge accuracy.
The 22-250 was conceived as a varmint cartridge. It has dominated that niche for a long time and still represents the gold standard to which other varmint cartridges are compared.
The 6br and 6 Dasher were conceived as benchrest cartridges and are no doubt excellent cartridges for that purpose. Can they function well as varmint cartridges? Of course they can and they do. But, that doesn't mean that they are the best choice for a niche outside of their initial purpose.
Though a certain level of accuracy is needed in the varmint fields, high velocities and flat trajectories are important as well. Your point about wind drift is well taken and the 22-250 delivers on that, too.
One final idea that I would like to add to the discussion is that of going with a 22-250AI. There is quite a bit of performance to be gained in the 22-250 by going this route, especially with heavy bullets. Check out Sierra's data and you will see what I mean. A fast twist 22-250AI would make for a pretty mean groundhog killing machine!
I took most of the 22-250 & 6mmBR velocities from the Berger manual. They are probably conservative. With the 58 GR Hornady in my 6BR I got 3650 fps on my chronograph with about 1 GR more powder that the recommended max. This was probably the only time in my life I loaded over published max. There were no signs of pressure, normal primers and bolt lift. Probably could have got 3700? I have seen people post on websites that they were getting close to 3600 fps with 68 GR bullets. My barrel is 26" and my velocities almost always come very close to data in the reloading manuals. I had a 14 twist barrel on my rifle for several reasons, proper twist for varmint and match weight bullets, not interested in long range shooting, I wanted light bullets because I thought they would breakup on contact and have less chance to ricochet.
The 6PPC is considered the most accurate cartridge in the world out to about 300 yrds. The 6BR is considered the next most accurate with more range. Of course there are many other good calibers for shooting varmints out to 500 yrds. plus but they are barrel burners. I shot a 6mmRem for about 20 years. After more than 5000 rounds the barrel was toasted for the first 6". I must have had at least 4" of freebore. It would still shoot a little under 1". I read an article that the 223 is used a lot in Canada in serious non-bench competition. I still like the fact that I will get about 5000 or more accurate shots out of my barrel. Maybe after 3000 shoots my groups will open up to 1/2"?
The 6PPC is considered the most accurate cartridge in the world out to about 300 yrds. The 6BR is considered the next most accurate with more range. Of course there are many other good calibers for shooting varmints out to 500 yrds. plus but they are barrel burners. I shot a 6mmRem for about 20 years. After more than 5000 rounds the barrel was toasted for the first 6". I must have had at least 4" of freebore. It would still shoot a little under 1". I read an article that the 223 is used a lot in Canada in serious non-bench competition. I still like the fact that I will get about 5000 or more accurate shots out of my barrel. Maybe after 3000 shoots my groups will open up to 1/2"?
I enjoyed my .22x6XC, I ran it like a modern day .220 Swift, more than the featured article in Varmint Hunter 2009.. It was hard on the throat area, but you keep it on the pussy side with either Reloader 17 or H4350, 75 or 80 grains A-Max bullets will chronograph ~3350 fps or fill the case for speed...
Steve
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3788825.0
Steve
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3788825.0
Look at the 6XC data on this website. Lots of capability. You can buy the cases by mail already to load (no fire forming). Might be more expensive than the more common cases. If I get another barrel I am thinking of a 6BRX. 22BR/22BRX look interesting . If you get the barrel twist and free bore for about an 85-90 grain bullet you could shoot at any distance. 6BRX still has more barrel life than most calibers. It only has about 1.5 more powder capacity than the standard 6BR. You just fire form 6BR cases to make 6BRX, no false shoulders or complicated steps. If you want more barrel life you don't have to shoot stiff loads. A GH doesn't know the differences between getting whacked at 3200 or 3600 fps.
I want to thank everybody for all of their responses. I have much to think about now and not yet finalized my decision. A lot of what I end up doing will be determined what happens in Washington in the months ahead and must admit to being a bit scared and concerned.
My 22/250 has been a good one. Remington action, Douglas barrel but 14" twist. I began shooting 55gr Nosler BT's and later Hornady VMax. If I were to impress myself or a nearby shooter I would shoot Hornady 52gr FB into a ragged hole. My shooting is much less often now than a few years back but want to change that. My rifle shoots well 5/8 to 7/8 with the 52-53gr and opens up a bit with my hunting loads. I have always kept records of my loads and used to chronograph them.
I had a great coach and Dad and getting back started is a bit dampened by the news out of D.C. I have some nieces and nephews I wish to show them that rifles and handguns are not evildoers as the press wants them to believe. I also want my old rifle to be able to shoot as it did when the first hundred or so rounds past down the tube. Though I was never offered a 500-600yd shot where I hunt I feel it would have been only me to blame if I missed.
Thanks to all!!!
My 22/250 has been a good one. Remington action, Douglas barrel but 14" twist. I began shooting 55gr Nosler BT's and later Hornady VMax. If I were to impress myself or a nearby shooter I would shoot Hornady 52gr FB into a ragged hole. My shooting is much less often now than a few years back but want to change that. My rifle shoots well 5/8 to 7/8 with the 52-53gr and opens up a bit with my hunting loads. I have always kept records of my loads and used to chronograph them.
I had a great coach and Dad and getting back started is a bit dampened by the news out of D.C. I have some nieces and nephews I wish to show them that rifles and handguns are not evildoers as the press wants them to believe. I also want my old rifle to be able to shoot as it did when the first hundred or so rounds past down the tube. Though I was never offered a 500-600yd shot where I hunt I feel it would have been only me to blame if I missed.
Thanks to all!!!
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