22-250 go no go gauges

[daniel brothers]

very interesting stuff Guys....

love that picture BillPa

 

[Ackman]

Ackman, I don't like to force my bolt on close on my guns as they are all custom actions and the fear of galling a $700 bolt is always present. However, I have had two AI's (22-250 & 280) and they worked great with less crush than you speak of. I know .025" is your preference, but I'm sure it is not the only way to skin this cat.

Now, on to go/no go gauges, you keep saying they are irrelevant and I totally disagree on this one. You have to have a consistent benchmark for setting up your chambers, and the gauges are that benchmark. You can not use brass as your benchmark because as you said, brass varies, so you want to be able to set up all chambers identically. You can setup your chambers at go gauge minus .025" as you previously specified, or go gauge minus 0.xxx" and get consistent results from one chamber to the next.

You're not understanding this. I didn't and have never said an AI should be set up with .025" crush or that it's my preference. I've told how mine was set up like that, in this cartridge, to illustrate that the crush thing is misunderstood and can be whatever you choose. And that the cliche'd .004 isn't near enough. At present I have 3 - 22/250AI's chambered identically. They're 700's, not custom actions. In about 25yrs shooting this cartridge all chambered this way, there's never been any galling. Not ever. But if you're fearful then do it however you wish.

Disagree if you want, doesn't matter. You're having difficulty understanding this. But just think a minute.......I've never fired even one round of loaded gauge. The gun shoots brass, not a gauge. Brass is inconsistent and varies sometimes quite a bit. The best way is to first get brass, then spec the reamer to it. Then have the gunsmith do as ackleymanII said to decide how much shorter on the chamber. That very first AI, cut with .025" crush, will chamber any headstamp and result in a perfectly formed case. My opinion is the best amount of crush is about .015". But I'm tired of dealing with this so believe what you wish.

If I go off the brass every time I cut a new chamber, they will all be different because brass is never the same.
You say you have three rifles chambered identically. If a gauge was not used as a benchmark, I find that very difficult to believe.

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

 

[Ackman]

BillPa............Excellent pictures. They show what's what with these cartridges.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ackman, I don't like to force my bolt on close on my guns as they are all custom actions and the fear of galling a $700 bolt is always present. However, I have had two AI's (22-250 & 280) and they worked great with less crush than you speak of. I know .025" is your preference, but I'm sure it is not the only way to skin this cat.

Now, on to go/no go gauges, you keep saying they are irrelevant and I totally disagree on this one. You have to have a consistent benchmark for setting up your chambers, and the gauges are that benchmark. You can not use brass as your benchmark because as you said, brass varies, so you want to be able to set up all chambers identically. You can setup your chambers at go gauge minus .025" as you previously specified, or go gauge minus 0.xxx" and get consistent results from one chamber to the next.

You're not understanding this. I didn't and have never said an AI should be set up with .025" crush or that it's my preference. I've told how mine was set up like that, in this cartridge, to illustrate that the crush thing is misunderstood and can be whatever you choose. And that the cliche'd .004 isn't near enough. At present I have 3 - 22/250AI's chambered identically. They're 700's, not custom actions. In about 25yrs shooting this cartridge all chambered this way, there's never been any galling. Not ever. But if you're fearful then do it however you wish.

Disagree if you want, doesn't matter. You're having difficulty understanding this. But just think a minute.......I've never fired even one round of loaded gauge. The gun shoots brass, not a gauge. Brass is inconsistent and varies sometimes quite a bit. The best way is to first get brass, then spec the reamer to it. Then have the gunsmith do as ackleymanII said to decide how much shorter on the chamber. That very first AI, cut with .025" crush, will chamber any headstamp and result in a perfectly formed case. My opinion is the best amount of crush is about .015". But I'm tired of dealing with this so believe what you wish.

If I go off the brass every time I cut a new chamber, they will all be different because brass is never the same.
You say you have three rifles chambered identically. If a gauge was not used as a benchmark, I find that very difficult to believe.

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

 

[Ackman]

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

Brass is interchangeable between every barrel.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

Brass is interchangeable between every barrel.

That does not mean they are "perfect".

Anyway, this is way off topic already. My point is that if you do not measure, you will never know. To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge. Same reason machine shops have gauge blocks.

 

[Ackman]

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

Brass is interchangeable between every barrel.

That does not mean they are "perfect".

Anyway, this is way off topic already. My point is that if you do not measure, you will never know. To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge. Same reason machine shops have gauge blocks.

What it means is...... my brass fits the same in all my chambers.

Believe whatever you want. I don't give a crap anymore.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

And...he's never bumped a shoulder on AI brass. Amazing, I tell ya! :

 

[Erik Cortina]

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

Brass is interchangeable between every barrel.

That does not mean they are "perfect".

Anyway, this is way off topic already. My point is that if you do not measure, you will never know. To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge. Same reason machine shops have gauge blocks.

What it means is...... my brass fits the same in all my chambers.

Believe whatever you want. I don't give a crap anymore.

I don't think you ever have, that's why you get your chambers headspaced with brass! ;D

Can you headspace a chamber with brass, sure you can. You can also drive your car with your feet, but that does not make it a good idea!

 

[Baka]

I think my original question was if I had the right gauges not an invite to a pissing match. Thank's for all the help.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I think my original question was if I had the right gauges not an invite to a pissing match. Thank's for all the help.

Yes, you have the right gauges.

 

[Ackman]

Believe whatever you like. Since that first 22-250AI I've had 5 or 6 other barrels chambered. Each time I've taken the riflebuilder my reamer and 3 formed cases for headspace. They come out perfect. Done the same with every other AI rebarrel.

My point here is that you do not know what perfect is. Can you tell me your actual headspace? I'm guessing the answer is no. So if you do not know your actual headspace, how do you know they are perfect?

Brass is interchangeable between every barrel.

That does not mean they are "perfect".

Anyway, this is way off topic already. My point is that if you do not measure, you will never know. To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge. Same reason machine shops have gauge blocks.

What it means is...... my brass fits the same in all my chambers.

Believe whatever you want. I don't give a crap anymore.

I don't think you ever have, that's why you get your chambers headspaced with brass! ;D

Can you headspace a chamber with brass, sure you can. You can also drive your car with your feet, but that does not make it a good idea!

You're still not getting it. The chamber can be .008, .013, .016 short.....there's no exact number it needs to be. Except there's so much SAAMI tolerance with brass and it's relationship to go/no go, .004" isn't near enough. I've specified .015" crush and gotten it. It could be a few or several thou. different and work just as well. So long as there's plenty of crush for every case. Relationship between brass and chamber is set during fireforming. And yeah, any good riflebuilder can cut a duplicate chamber off a piece of fireformed brass. I've had it done many times by some excellent riflebuilders. And yes they all headspace perfectly. If you can't do that, well.......

 

[Erik Cortina]

Oh boy, how can you say chambers are cut perfectly when you have never measured them?
I have cut plenty of chambers, I bet more than you!

 

[CatShooter]

More crush won't hurt if you keep the lugs well lubed AND your sizer die will be able to push the shoulder back from there. Problem there is, you won't know till you try it.

I don't agree with Ackman for the aforementioned reasons and because you only need enough crush to keep the case from moving forward while fireforming. I feel like .004-.005 is enough if the brass is consistent.

You stand less chance of galling the lugs from having all that crush.

Bolt lugs should always be lubed anyway, with any cartridge. Only takes a little. I use moly or high pressure lube. Shooting AI's since about '90, literally thousands of cases and I've never had to bump the shoulder.

Cases aren't consistent. I've not measured 22-250 brass, but have measured .243 cases. A handful each of Lapua, Win, and PMC. Measured to where new brass headspaces in an AI chamber......at the neck/shoulder junction. Just in that comparatively limited bunch, each headstamp varied by .004-006". Yes even Lapua. And shortest of one headstamp to longest of another, the difference was .009". So just chambering .004" short of SAAMI won't do it. Again, the only place the chamber hits is that neck/shoulder radius. With .015" crush you feel very little resistance. In 7,000+ formed cases I've never, not ever, had any galling whatsoever on bolt lugs.

Thing about this, the amount of crush can be whatever a person wants. It's between the gun owner and his rifle, and it's for that first firing. That's it. I'd advise Remdog to absolutely find a riflebuilder who's well versed with AI cartridges. Too many really aren't. If the guy says .004" crush is right, find someone else.

I agree with you.

0.004" thou is not enough to hold the case in place, when cases can vary ~10 thou - that means more than half of the cases aren't even touching the chamber at all, and the force of the primer will guarantee case stretching on the first shot. And once that happens, it is downhill from there.

When Nosler wanted to get the 280 AI approved as a factory cartridge, SAAMI threw it back at Nosler and said 4 thou of crush was "bad engineering practice"...

... SAAMI required 20 thou of crush or they would not approve the cartridge. Nosler complied and the 280 AI is the only AI cartridge ever approved, even though there are several others that are 100's of times more popular.

You gotta remember that when P.O developed the AI concept, it was a time that gunsmiths made very little money (not like now )... the idea was they could take in AI work with just a reamer, they didn't have to get new sets of headspace gauges (which were much more expensive in relative dollars, than they are now).

More than half of the AI's I have seen, have headspace problems, and case separation problems that follow. Many guys start off with false shoulders to form cases, which defeats the whole idea of AI's.

The solution is to shoot the first forming shot in a wet chamber, so the case fills the chamber without stretching, and then neck size after that, cuz a well chambered AI does not stretch (unless the action is crummy and prone to stretching).

I also agree - if the smith says 4 thou of crush is enough, take your stuff to someone else.

 

[CatShooter]

That does not mean they are "perfect".

Anyway, this is way off topic already. My point is that if you do not measure, you will never know. To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge. Same reason machine shops have gauge blocks.

Just a thought - please define "perfect".

The reason I ask is that the "perfect" range of most factory chambers + brass is 14 thou - anything inside of that 14 thou is "fine".

When the case is fired, whether it is a max chamber or a min chamber, the case will fit the chamber "perfectly".
And God only knows how many matches have been won by shooters that didn't know their chamber's measurement.

A lot of gunsmiths headspace (or more properly, "FIT") a barrel on the customers cases - including one of the country's best builder of 1,000 yard rifles, so it is not a bad thing to do - not my way, but I am anal when cutting a chamber.

"To measure, you must have a benchmark, and that benchmark is the headspace gauge."

If you have "a headspace gauge"... you have nothing. A single gauge tells you that the chamber is NOT shorter than that measurement... but it could be 3 inches longer.

If you have a go and a no go headspace gauge, you are still cutting a chamber inside of a 10 thou window... which is not what I call "perfect"!!

To actually know what the headspace is, you need a full set of gauges (~$350) for each caliber you do... or you have to go through a lengthy firing regimen and measure fired cases (which is not that accurate, but will do).

And by the way... what IS the min/max headspace on the 22-250 AI???

 

[Erik Cortina]

Catshooter, I was not the one that said I had perfect chambers, ackman did, so maybe he should define "perfect".

22-250
Go gauge = 1.574"
No-go gauge = 1.579"

22-250 gauges are used to chamber the AI version. The standard is to go .004" shorter for AI.

22-250 AI (22-250 gauges are used)
Min= 1.570"
Max = 1.575"

Using this as your baseline, you can chamber longer or shorter. My point is that if you want .020" crush, then make your min 1.554". You do this by running reamer in .020" short and verifying with go gauge - make sure you also measure go gauge to verify that it is indeed 1.574"

The headspace window is .005", not .010" like you specified. One gauge is all you need to verify headspace as the gauge is simply a reference. You can verify if a chamber is shorter/longer than gauge, and use that info to determine if you are within specs or not. So no, it can not be "3" longer", if it is, you do not know what you are doing.

The OP asked if the 22-250 gauges were the correct ones for chambering a 22-250 AI, the answer to that question is YES, as they are the gauges used to chamber the AI version.

 

[16tpi]

That would have been a good question to ask your smith, or the reamer man!