22-250 go no go gauges

[Baka]

Just wondering if I got sent the wrong go no go gauges. I'm getting a 22-250 A.I. reamer made with gauges. The gauges say 22-250 REM on them not 22-250 A.I. or are they correct? I'm not a gun builder so I don't have a clue.Anyone know?

 

[Ackman]

Don't even worry about gauges, don't mess with them. Have whoever's chambering the gun cut your chamber .015" short of a std. 22-250.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The go becomes your no-go when doing Ackley chambers. More crush won't hurt if you keep the lugs well lubed AND your sizer die will be able to push the shoulder back from there. Problem there is, you won't know till you try it. You could cut the shell holder or die down to push it back if it won't, as is. There's nothing complicated about doing the AI version of a chambering. I don't agree with Ackman for the aforementioned reasons and because you only need enough crush to keep the case from moving forward while fireforming. I feel like .004-.005 is enough if the brass is consistent. You stand less chance of galling the lugs from having all that crush. That said, what he mentioned can and will work. Your gunsmith should know how to set the chamber up. If not, find one that does.--Mike Ezell

 

[Baka]

Thank you both for the in-put it is appreciated.

 

[Ackman]

More crush won't hurt if you keep the lugs well lubed AND your sizer die will be able to push the shoulder back from there. Problem there is, you won't know till you try it.

I don't agree with Ackman for the aforementioned reasons and because you only need enough crush to keep the case from moving forward while fireforming. I feel like .004-.005 is enough if the brass is consistent.

You stand less chance of galling the lugs from having all that crush.

Bolt lugs should always be lubed anyway, with any cartridge. Only takes a little. I use moly or high pressure lube. Shooting AI's since about '90, literally thousands of cases and I've never had to bump the shoulder.

Cases aren't consistent. I've not measured 22-250 brass, but have measured .243 cases. A handful each of Lapua, Win, and PMC. Measured to where new brass headspaces in an AI chamber......at the neck/shoulder junction. Just in that comparatively limited bunch, each headstamp varied by .004-006". Yes even Lapua. And shortest of one headstamp to longest of another, the difference was .009". So just chambering .004" short of SAAMI won't do it. Again, the only place the chamber hits is that neck/shoulder radius. With .015" crush you feel very little resistance. In 7,000+ formed cases I've never, not ever, had any galling whatsoever on bolt lugs.

Thing about this, the amount of crush can be whatever a person wants. It's between the gun owner and his rifle, and it's for that first firing. That's it. I'd advise Remdog to absolutely find a riflebuilder who's well versed with AI cartridges. Too many really aren't. If the guy says .004" crush is right, find someone else.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

More crush won't hurt if you keep the lugs well lubed AND your sizer die will be able to push the shoulder back from there. Problem there is, you won't know till you try it.

I don't agree with Ackman for the aforementioned reasons and because you only need enough crush to keep the case from moving forward while fireforming. I feel like .004-.005 is enough if the brass is consistent.

You stand less chance of galling the lugs from having all that crush.

Bolt lugs should always be lubed anyway, with any cartridge. Only takes a little. I use moly or high pressure lube. Shooting AI's since about '90, literally thousands of cases and I've never had to bump the shoulder.

Cases aren't consistent. I've not measured 22-250 brass, but have measured .243 cases. A handful each of Lapua, Win, and PMC. Measured to where new brass headspaces in an AI chamber......at the neck/shoulder junction. Just in that comparatively limited bunch, each headstamp varied by .004-006". Yes even Lapua. And shortest of one headstamp to longest of another, the difference was .009". So just chambering .004" short of SAAMI won't do it. Again, the only place the chamber hits is that neck/shoulder radius. With .015" crush you feel very little resistance. In 7,000+ formed cases I've never, not ever, had any galling whatsoever on bolt lugs.

Thing about this, the amount of crush can be whatever a person wants. It's between the gun owner and his rifle, and it's for that first firing. That's it. I'd advise Remdog to absolutely find a riflebuilder who's well versed with AI cartridges. Too many really aren't. If the guy says .004" crush is right, find someone else.

Look Ackman, there's no need in calling me out. I was very polite and matter of fact in stating that I agree with P.O. Ackley ,SAAMI and industry standards for how an AI chamber is suppose to be cut, and in stating that your method would work. Just because you've never bumped your shoulders doesn't mean that he or others won't want or need to. And just because you've never galled lugs doesn't mean that he or others won't. My points are legitimate and real. If you want to say that someone isn't well versed on the subject, first look in the mirror, as your method has it's potential downsides. Note that I said potential. If it works for you, GREAT, but don't tell me that I'm not versed on the subject. I've done them both ways and have seen the pros and cons of both, more than most.


The only valid point of contention in your post is relative to brass inconsistency. You're right, it's not all the same. Nor is any other factory brass for AI or non AI chamberings. So what's your point? Lots of people have success with simply jamming the bullet hard into the lands. Not that I think that's the best way, but it works for many. We don't hear of many Dashers blowing up or having brass life or stretch issues done this way. Get over yourself and stop giving advice that might cost someone else their money on a public forum.


And pay attention to who you call out next time. As I said, I was very polite in pointing out where we simply don't agree and in mentioning that your proposed method can and will work. Not so nice this time, huh? How's it feel?

 

[AckleymanII]

I have seen as much as 0.016 variation in the headspace from one brand of new brass to another. I like a lot of crush on my new AI cases, just bump the shoulder a tad so you can feel just a tad of contact about half way down when closing the bolt. Keep a little lube on the lugs, you are good to go.

My first 22/250 AI was set up with 0.025 crush, I never lost a case.

I like to provide the gunsmith with 5 new cases of the brand of brass that I will be shooting, and tell him to hit a crush somewhere between .025-.010 on the new cases. I don't even want him to use a Go gage on my chamber. If he insists on using a go gage, I dial another phone number on the gunsmith list.

In otherwords, I do not want a new piece of brass to be able to be chambered in my new AI chamber, it HAS to have the shoulder bumped a little. I use an over size ogive gage to measure the headspace length, so this over size ogive gage would be be an ogive gage for a 270 caliber, fits on the shoulder perfectly.

The whole point to this is to completely eliminate any brass stretching on the fire forming load. Brass varies a lot more brand new than you would think.

Good luck and the 22/250AI is one of the very best AI's.

 

[Erik Cortina]

The entire idea of the AI was to be able to fire factory ammo through an AI chamber in a pinch. If you set it up with that much crush, you will not be able to do so.

Talk to your gunsmith about your purposes, and if you want a slight crush, let him know. Provide your go/no go gauges so he can use them as a reference. Gauges are never unnecessary, they can be used to set up headspace with +- dimensions accurately.

 

[Ackman]

The entire idea of the AI was to be able to fire factory ammo through an AI chamber in a pinch. If you set it up with that much crush, you will not be able to do so.

Sure you will. Brass is the same whether empty or factory loaded. My very first (1989) 22-250AI was also cut with .025" crush on new brass and every barrel since then has been the same. I use PMC brass in that cartridge. I've also shot factory PMC ammo through it, works just fine.

 

[Ackman]

So gunsandgunsmithing.......no matter how "politely", if you agree/don't agree with me I'll still say what is. A dab of lube when cleaning the rifle - it's what you do anyway - and galling isn't a problem. And I've not ever had to bump the shoulder of an AI case. But yeah, since you want to show your expertness and disagree I guess that doesn't mean it can't potentially happen to someone else.

And since brass isn't consistent, you're asking what was my point? Duh.
"Giving advice that might cost someone else their money on a public forum".....what's that supposed to mean? And talk about "getting over yourself?".....do it yourownself. You really don't know this stuff that well. But you sure let me have it now didn't you?

 

[Eddie Harren]

"Can't we all just get along?" Rodney King circa 1992

 

[Erik Cortina]

The entire idea of the AI was to be able to fire factory ammo through an AI chamber in a pinch. If you set it up with that much crush, you will not be able to do so.

Sure you will. Brass is the same whether empty or factory loaded. My very first (1989) 22-250AI was also cut with .025" crush on new brass and every barrel since then has been the same. I use PMC brass in that cartridge. I've also shot factory PMC ammo through it, works just fine.

So you can crush .025" on the brass shoulder without resizing?

 

[Baka]

Maybe I shouldn't have asked?

 

[Ackman]

The entire idea of the AI was to be able to fire factory ammo through an AI chamber in a pinch. If you set it up with that much crush, you will not be able to do so.

Sure you will. Brass is the same whether empty or factory loaded. My very first (1989) 22-250AI was also cut with .025" crush on new brass and every barrel since then has been the same. I use PMC brass in that cartridge. I've also shot factory PMC ammo through it, works just fine.

So you can crush .025" on the brass shoulder without resizing?

Well yes........ there's no sizing, crush is only on that first firing and only at the neck/shoulder junction.....the only place that contacts and moves back. The shoulder itself doesn't move or even touch the chamber. Even if it did move, which it doesn't......it's sitting there in a larger chamber with much less body taper and about .040" more diameter at the shoulder which is also much further forward. Of course you can have .025" crush at the neck base with no problem. BTW- open a caliper .025" and hold it to the light, see how much that is....not much. And again the only place being pushed back is that neck/shoulder radius. No part of the case or shoulder is even close to contacting the chamber.

Another BTW - that very first 22-250AI....AckleymanII and I had guns built by the same riflebuilder, a guy very well versed in AI's who was heavily into benchrest as well. He explained that crush was set up at .025" and why. It's worked for about 25yrs and several barrels and several 1000 cases. I don't mention it on a board since there'll always be someone who says "Oh no, that's too much. You can't do that." I'm not saying that much is necessary but with the inconsistencies in brass, the .004" number people like to quote is nonsense. Should be at least .010" and .015" is better.......my other AI's are about .015" depending on the particular case. At .015" you feel little resistance on the bolt handle. It makes headspace gauges irrelevant.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ackman, I don't like to force my bolt on close on my guns as they are all custom actions and the fear of galling a $700 bolt is always present. However, I have had two AI's (22-250 & 280) and they worked great with less crush than you speak of. I know .025" is your preference, but I'm sure it is not the only way to skin this cat.

Now, on to go/no go gauges, you keep saying they are irrelevant and I totally disagree on this one. You have to have a consistent benchmark for setting up your chambers, and the gauges are that benchmark. You can not use brass as your benchmark because as you said, brass varies, so you want to be able to set up all chambers identically. You can setup your chambers at go gauge minus .025" as you previously specified, or go gauge minus 0.xxx" and get consistent results from one chamber to the next.

 

[Baka]

Thank's for the input from all. I think I'll go with the gauges like Erik said.

 

[Dave T]

EXCUSE ME,
What do you folks mean by crush as it applies to this topic.
Dave T

 

[Ackman]

Ackman, I don't like to force my bolt on close on my guns as they are all custom actions and the fear of galling a $700 bolt is always present. However, I have had two AI's (22-250 & 280) and they worked great with less crush than you speak of. I know .025" is your preference, but I'm sure it is not the only way to skin this cat.

Now, on to go/no go gauges, you keep saying they are irrelevant and I totally disagree on this one. You have to have a consistent benchmark for setting up your chambers, and the gauges are that benchmark. You can not use brass as your benchmark because as you said, brass varies, so you want to be able to set up all chambers identically. You can setup your chambers at go gauge minus .025" as you previously specified, or go gauge minus 0.xxx" and get consistent results from one chamber to the next.

You're not understanding this. I didn't and have never said an AI should be set up with .025" crush or that it's my preference. I've told how mine was set up like that, in this cartridge, to illustrate that the crush thing is misunderstood and can be whatever you choose. And that the cliche'd .004 isn't near enough. At present I have 3 - 22/250AI's chambered identically. They're 700's, not custom actions. In about 25yrs shooting this cartridge all chambered this way, there's never been any galling. Not ever. But if you're fearful then do it however you wish.

Disagree if you want, doesn't matter. You're having difficulty understanding this. But just think a minute.......I've never fired even one round of loaded gauge. The gun shoots brass, not a gauge. Brass is inconsistent and varies sometimes quite a bit. The best way is to first get brass, then spec the reamer to it. Then have the gunsmith do as ackleymanII said to decide how much shorter on the chamber. That very first AI, cut with .025" crush, will chamber any headstamp and result in a perfectly formed case. My opinion is the best amount of crush is about .015". But I'm tired of dealing with this so believe what you wish.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ackman, I don't like to force my bolt on close on my guns as they are all custom actions and the fear of galling a $700 bolt is always present. However, I have had two AI's (22-250 & 280) and they worked great with less crush than you speak of. I know .025" is your preference, but I'm sure it is not the only way to skin this cat.

Now, on to go/no go gauges, you keep saying they are irrelevant and I totally disagree on this one. You have to have a consistent benchmark for setting up your chambers, and the gauges are that benchmark. You can not use brass as your benchmark because as you said, brass varies, so you want to be able to set up all chambers identically. You can setup your chambers at go gauge minus .025" as you previously specified, or go gauge minus 0.xxx" and get consistent results from one chamber to the next.

You're not understanding this. I didn't and have never said an AI should be set up with .025" crush or that it's my preference. I've told how mine was set up like that, in this cartridge, to illustrate that the crush thing is misunderstood and can be whatever you choose. And that the cliche'd .004 isn't near enough. At present I have 3 - 22/250AI's chambered identically. They're 700's, not custom actions. In about 25yrs shooting this cartridge all chambered this way, there's never been any galling. Not ever. But if you're fearful then do it however you wish.

Disagree if you want, doesn't matter. You're having difficulty understanding this. But just think a minute.......I've never fired even one round of loaded gauge. The gun shoots brass, not a gauge. Brass is inconsistent and varies sometimes quite a bit. The best way is to first get brass, then spec the reamer to it. Then have the gunsmith do as ackleymanII said to decide how much shorter on the chamber. That very first AI, cut with .025" crush, will chamber any headstamp and result in a perfectly formed case. My opinion is the best amount of crush is about .015". But I'm tired of dealing with this so believe what you wish.

A gauge is simple a benchmark, you are the one that is not understanding because you have never chambered a barrel in your life.

Let me try to explain it to you better, if you listen, you will learn something.
Let's say you wanted me to chamber a barrel for you. You bring me some brass and specify that you want the headspace .010" shorter than the brass you just brought me. The go gauge measures 1.575"
I measure all your brass and the shortest one measures 1.570"
Then I would chamber your gun to go gauge minus .015" (1.575" - .015 = 1.560")
If you come back 3 years later and you say you need to rebarrel your rifle, I would cut the chamber again to go gauge minus .015" (1.560") and then you could reuse all your brass previously fired in the old barrel.

If I go off the brass every time I cut a new chamber, they will all be different because brass is never the same.
You say you have three rifles chambered identically. If a gauge was not used as a benchmark, I find that very difficult to believe.

 

[BillPa]

EXCUSE ME,
What do you folks mean by crush as it applies to this topic.
Dave T

As mentioned, the "design" of a true improved cartridge is the ability to chamber and fire the parent without alteration, no bullet jam and etc.

Pardon my Gimp expertise, but talking strictly rimless bottle neck cartridges...

The red represents the parent cartridge, gold the improved chamber. The "Head Clearance" or lack of it in this instance on the parent is established on the neck-shoulder junction with crush fit in a properly reamed improved chamber.

A few examples...

L-R, the 22-250/22-250 Imp, 250-3000/250 Imp and two true wildcats, the 270-08 and 270-08 Imp. The ring on the neck-shoulder junctions indicates they're contact in the chamber. The second pic is the parent 270-08, a cast of the improved 270-08 chamber and a formed case.

Bill