215gr Berger Hybrid

[Rtheurer]

Anyone shooting the 215gr Hybrid in a match rifle chambered in 308 Winchester? Looking to see what your likes and dislikes are and maybe a little advice on powder, seating depth experience.
Also any down range experience at 1000 yards if you have any.

Russ T

 

[Steve Blair]

I've been shooting the 230 Hybrid, Russ. Shot the 210 LRBT before that. I used RL17 with the 210 and N550 and H4350 with the 230. With N550, I am seeing 2500 fps from 30" and moderate pressure. It could go a bit faster but showed best accuracy at 2500. I point the 230 and my 1000 yard drop numbers indicate ~.410 G7 B.C. All my 230 work has been in Lapua Palma brass. Best primer was CCI 450. I am planning to try Remington 7½ BR primers and see if the increased brisance helps the velocity spread. My best ES/SD was 7.90/3.28 but ~16.0/7.0 is more typical. The barrel is a 10" twist Shilen Select with a .280" freebore and best grouping was at -.011 or 3.139 OAL. The velocity spread numbers are a little better with H4350 but it is ~50 fps down from N550.

 

[TonyR]

I have done the QuickLoad work for that combination and am just waiting for a 1:10 twist barrel to try the 215 and 230s. In the meantime I have been working with the 200 Hybrid in a 1:11 twist 30 inch 4 groove Krieger and N550. 2600 fps is easy and I shot some Win brass at 2700 fps with good vertical but blew a primer when I tried the same speed with Lapua brass. In any event, I think 2600 will be doable with the 215 and N550 out of a 30 or 31 inch barrel. The BCs are so high with these new bullets that it doesn't take a lot of velocity to equal the drop or drift of something like a 185 LRBT at max speed.

 

[wboggs]

I have been developing a load for my .30-06. Best accuracy for me so far has been a mild load at 2650 using H 4350 seated off 0.03. Tried H4831 and R17. R17 was all over the target. All with Lapua brass and F210M. Have not tried N550.
Shot one session at 600 with 4" grp., one at 1000 with 14" because my crosshairs are too small and I could not see the black on black and reproduce a sight picture. The bullet appears to be less affected by the wind than a Berger 6mm 105 at 2950 my buddy was shooting.
Bill

 

[Rtheurer]

Wow Ididnt think 2600 would be possable with the big 215's. What chamber are you guys running, Palma 95, Gamboa 2010, Bisley?

Thanks for the information so far.

RT

 

[Steve Blair]

I don't have any of the 215's at hand but, judging by the length and the 230, they will likely need ≥.200" freebore. I have a pair of .308 reamers with .280" freebores, one with .442" neck and the other .337".

 

[TonyR]

The 200s just make it in the same chamber I use for the 185 LRBT but just barely. I know I will have to lengthen the throat for the 215s and 230s. I'm going to find something that will let me use the 200, 215, and 230. I'm waiting on an action for the build so I haven't made up a dummy round yet but the 200 sure does look long when it is loaded up. They are just barely above the neck shoulder junction in my chamber. I'll see if I can find a loaded 200 somewhere and post the COAL. Laurie Holland has posted a comparison of bearing surface lengths for the Berger 308 bullets discussed in these posts. Maybe he will post it again if he sees this post.

 

[Rtheurer]

Kinda makes a statment when you put it next to a 155gr Sierra Matchking.

 

[Steve Blair]

Similarly, the Berger 155.5 FULLBORE, 210 LR-BT and 230 Hybrid.

 

[Laurie]

Maybe he will post it again if he sees this post. [TonyR]

Here is the table


BTLR v Hybrid Comparisons

Weight / Model BC (G7) BC Index BSL Ideal COAL Comp. COAL Optimal Twist Rate
155.5gn BT Fullbore 0.237 100 0.265” 2.855” 2.15” 1-13”
155gn Hybrid 0.247 104 0.278” 2.835” 2.135” 1-12”

168gn Hybrid 0.266 112 0.294” 2.845” 2.145” 1-12”

185gn BTLR 0.283 119 0.360” 2.940” 2.280” 1-12”
185gn Hybrid 0.291 123 0.395” 2.950” 2.210” 1-11”

200gn Hybrid 0.320 135 0.450” 3.050” 2.305” 1-11”
210gn BTLR 0.320 135 0.481” 3.055” 2.360” 1-11”
210gn VLD 0.323 136 0.592” 3.075” 2.390” 1-11”
215gn Hybrid 0.356 150 0.419”* 3.105” 2.355” 1-10”
230gn Hybrid 0.380 160 0.495”* 3.200” 2.435” 1-10”

Ideal COAL puts the bearing surface bottom edge at the bottom of the case-neck in lighter bullets, bullet base on the case shoulder to body junction in heavy models, and then both plain and comparator OALs were measured.

You can see that the Hybrids generally have a shorter Comp-OAL than the equivalent weight BT LR model. The 215 and especially the 230 are so long however that even so, the barrel has to be 'generously' throated. If you built the rifle set up for the 230, you'd almost be limited to this pair.

I've acquired a couple of hundred 215s but haven't tried them yet. My 2012 season barrel unfortunately doesn't like the 185 and 200gn Hybrids, and these were the bullets I was assuming I'd use in it. This is a True-Flite 'Match Rifle' (as in the particular 1,00-1,200yd discipline called Match Rifle not generic match / competition rifle) spec barrel - 32", 1-10", 5.5lbs weight, so long and quite skinny. It has been throated to be near optimal for the 210 BTLR and VLD and suits the 185 / 200 Hybrid, is a bit short for the 215, and much too short for the 230. It like 208gn Hornady bullets and Berger 175-190gn VLDs!

I haven't heard much about results with the 215 over here - we only got limited supplies and well after US shooters started using them. The 230 is rarer still. A friend whose rifle has a very heavy fluted 1-10" Broughton that shot 210s superbly last year has had it re-throated for the 215 / 230 and found the former very 'picky', while the 230 grouped brilliantly from the start but at a rather lower MV than he hoped to achieve. He's abandoned the former and will use the really heavy model in matches with very rough conditions.

 

[TonyR]

Laurie.
What do the asterics mean next to the BSL for the 215 and 230 Hybrids. I would think that comparing BSLs would give at least a rough idea how much longer the throat would need to be compared to something known like the 185 LRBT or 200 Hybrid in my case. It doesn't seem like those BSLs are directly comparable to the lighter bullets??
Thanks
Tony

 

[Steve Blair]

The 230's have been grouping well for me, too. The attached image is fairly typical. Groups average ~.350-.400, shot from bipod and bench. I think they are actually grouping a little better but this is the best I can do from the bench. This group also had the typical velocity spread of 16.10/6.94 with N550.

 

[Laurie]

What do the asterics mean next to the BSL for the 215 and 230 Hybrids. [TonyR]

Tony,

apologies - I should have put the notes in for this table when I copied it from the Target Shooter Online magazine article where I'd given my first look at the 30-cal Hybrids.


Notes
BSL = Bearing Surface Length (Shank length). Data from Bryan Litz’s book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting 2nd edition except for the 215 and 230gn Hybrids from Berger Bullets’ Quick Reference Sheet and marked so: * . This pair looks to be quoted too short in relation to the other bullets.

‘Ideal COAL’ and Comp. COAL refer to measured cartridge lengths with a bullet seated so the shank to boat-tail junction coincides with the neck/shoulder junction on the case. COAL is the resulting overall length of the cartridge, ‘Comp COAL’ is as measured from the case-head to the ogive using callipers and a Hornady bullet comparator body / .30 cal insert. Some people may wish to chamber their barrels with longer freebore so the bullet sits higher in the case-neck to maximise capacity. The purpose of the ‘Comp COAL’ value is to give a feel for how the different bullets stack up on the required amount of freebore. Bullet seating positions were obtained in a fairly crude manner using a second bullet held alongside the case exterior for comparison, so these values should be treated as a rough guide only.

Optimal twist rates are as supplied by Berger Bullets and will provide full stability in all normal meteorological conditions down to dry freezing air at sea level and at standard velocities. A slightly slower twist will often work in ideal conditions (high temperatures and humidity at altitudes above sea level).


I don't think you can use the BSLs alone to compare them as there are significant differences in nose length and radius between the different weight bullets. That's why I seated them in sized cases and then took the comparator-COAL measurements, likewise seating and measuring the 155.5, 185 and 210gn BTs in the same way to see how they'd compare in any given chamber-throat.

I didn't measure the BSLs myself. The method I use to check BSL consistency and batch bullets before loading uses callipers and two comparator bodies with Hornady .30 inserts, but gives different results to Bryan Litz's / the Berger quick reference document available on Berger Bullets' website. I imagine that's because the holes in the inserts are slightly smaller diameter than the bullets' 0.3080" (or whatever) as it'll be based on bore diameter, 0.300" or something in order to similar to simulate a bullet touching the rifling leade when doing the measurements with the OAL tool.

 

[TonyR]

I've got all those bullets. I just need to get my comparator out of the closet and run a few through. It will only be a relative measure compared to a 185 LRBT I keep handy to calibrate the thing. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[TonyR]

The comparator is back in service and here are my measurements of BSLs for the 185, 200, 215, and 230 grain Berger Hybrids compared to a Berger 185 grain LRBT. These are RELATIVE measurements made with a JB Bullet Ogive Comparator. I keep a Berger 185 LRBT with the device so that I can set the dial indication to a standard value, in this case .123 inches every time. So the results will tell how much longer or shorter each BSL is compared to the standard but does not measure the actual BSL. This should give a rough idea how much more or less throat might be needed compared to a known bullet. A dummy round would be much better. I have found the JB Comparator to be an excellent tool for these comparisons because the measurements of an individual bullet are repeatable unlike other tools I have tried. Your results may vary even with the same tool due to differences in the average BSL from lot to lot of the same bullet type.