In a recent conversation on another site a gentleman told me that the 208 AMAX is not used very much, if at all for 1000 yard matches. Is there a particular reason for this other than the standard "There are better bullets out there"? Does it become more unstable than others at that range. I shoot steel with a 300 WM, I'm not a match shooter, but do want accuracy. Thanks or the replys.
208 AMAX Performance
- Thread starter Deton8tor
- Start date
Not sure if this will help but I use the 208's in a 308 and, on a hot day when I don't want to get into a shooting jacket, I've shot them at 600 yards and they are impressive. I'm not a f-class shooter and don't know all the tricks of getting the most accurate group, but my guess is a 4-5 inch group at 600 yds would be a good average for my load.
I've bought a bunch of them and plan to try them out this summer for long range. Shot them twice this weekend at 1K yards, but the jury is still out....mostly because I'm not sure I can handle the recoil as comfortably as the 185s. But, I'm putting a pad on my cheekpiece and plan to shoot them all summer to thoroughly test them. One thing to note is you need a really long freebore which essentially turns your 308WIN into a dedicated 210-230 grain bullet rifle.
Yes, that's correct Tony, or it was. There has been a near 100% shift to Bergers in the top echelons of GB F/TR, a handful only using the 155gn Scenar-L and the Australian manufactured Dyer HBC 155 VLD.
Many guys are using compromise freebore chambers that shoot both the 210gn Berger LR BT and the 155.5 BT well and decide on the day which loading they'll use depending on weather conditions. There has been a noticeable drift back to 155s though from heavy bullets. Scotland's Paul Crosbie, (whom you'll remember from Blair Atholl in 2011) is the reigning GB F/TR league champion and while he probably shoots 155.5s more often than anything else, has had some stonking results from the 200gn Berger Hybrid. He's proven unbeatable in the annual L-R meeting at Bisley in mid summer in the 1,200 yard stage with them. (Last year was the final time to have this feature - the longest distance is 1,100 yards this year and on into the future.)
I also think the points Scott made are very valid. Most people find they can shoot the lighter bullets more precisely, so they'll want to see substantial windage benefits in rough weather conditions before choosing the 200/210s. Also, we only have one top national competitor I can think of now who has a rifle chambered just for the uber-heavies, Steve Donaldson, and the last time I spoke to him, he was on 210s again as he couldn't get hold of any 230s. (The few 215s and 230s that make it here are mostly collared these days by those F/O types who've adopted the .300WSM.) Viht N550 is very much the favoured powder for all heavies from 200gn and up and Lapua Palma brass is used by most L-R competitors.
Many guys are using compromise freebore chambers that shoot both the 210gn Berger LR BT and the 155.5 BT well and decide on the day which loading they'll use depending on weather conditions. There has been a noticeable drift back to 155s though from heavy bullets. Scotland's Paul Crosbie, (whom you'll remember from Blair Atholl in 2011) is the reigning GB F/TR league champion and while he probably shoots 155.5s more often than anything else, has had some stonking results from the 200gn Berger Hybrid. He's proven unbeatable in the annual L-R meeting at Bisley in mid summer in the 1,200 yard stage with them. (Last year was the final time to have this feature - the longest distance is 1,100 yards this year and on into the future.)
I also think the points Scott made are very valid. Most people find they can shoot the lighter bullets more precisely, so they'll want to see substantial windage benefits in rough weather conditions before choosing the 200/210s. Also, we only have one top national competitor I can think of now who has a rifle chambered just for the uber-heavies, Steve Donaldson, and the last time I spoke to him, he was on 210s again as he couldn't get hold of any 230s. (The few 215s and 230s that make it here are mostly collared these days by those F/O types who've adopted the .300WSM.) Viht N550 is very much the favoured powder for all heavies from 200gn and up and Lapua Palma brass is used by most L-R competitors.
I shoot more Hrn amax and BTHP then anything else. Love them for their price vs performance. Make great LR bullets for rocks, gongs and general plinking.
I compete in F class and use the Hrn for practise. I compete with BERGERs.
simply put, the QC of the Hrn isn't anywhere near tight enough and that can vary from lot to lot.
I have shot some very good groups but day in day out X ring accuracy, I will use Bergers.
Laurie, as I mentioned at the Worlds last year, new stock is being shot now that the snow has melted. So far results with 200's have been really good even with me at the helm.
Recently tested some 230s and really caught my interest. got to longer throat a barrel to fully test the potential.
With the new stock, recoil and tracking have been easy. See how these work out in matches this summer.
Jerry
I compete in F class and use the Hrn for practise. I compete with BERGERs.
simply put, the QC of the Hrn isn't anywhere near tight enough and that can vary from lot to lot.
I have shot some very good groups but day in day out X ring accuracy, I will use Bergers.
Laurie, as I mentioned at the Worlds last year, new stock is being shot now that the snow has melted. So far results with 200's have been really good even with me at the helm.
Recently tested some 230s and really caught my interest. got to longer throat a barrel to fully test the potential.
With the new stock, recoil and tracking have been easy. See how these work out in matches this summer.
Jerry
stool
the answer is simple..they are not the same quality as true match bullets..
look at their cost, then go sort some...
having said that,i am a beginner in 1000yd br..and i shoot the 208 amax....it was available and the cost is right for a beginner.
i have a small lot of bib 187's and some berger 210s to shoot when my arm heals( broken playing volleyball).
my rifle my loads the amax's will only shoot 0.15/0.16 moa...( .32 or so at 200).
not bad for a production bullet...
i have been "told" the same as you ...the are not so good as the distance gets longer
look at their cost, then go sort some...
having said that,i am a beginner in 1000yd br..and i shoot the 208 amax....it was available and the cost is right for a beginner.
i have a small lot of bib 187's and some berger 210s to shoot when my arm heals( broken playing volleyball).
my rifle my loads the amax's will only shoot 0.15/0.16 moa...( .32 or so at 200).
not bad for a production bullet...
i have been "told" the same as you ...the are not so good as the distance gets longer
Ok, now we are making some scence. They are ok for my basic intended purpose of steel gonging at 800 - 1000. If I want more/better match accuracy I can move to the Bergers. I have thought on the 200 hybrid. I am too old to start any competition. I ran my family ragged shooting comp archery in my younger years. Thanks for the input, but more is welcome.
EOD350 said:
Availability is an issue with any of the heavy bullets. If you can't get the Bergers, you could also consider the Sierra 210 MatchKing. The ones I've measured are as uniform as the Berger Hybrids in the same weight class.
Throats are an issue with any of these bullets. I have a barrel throated for the Berger 230 Hybrid that shoots the 210 Sierra and the 187 BIB very well. It will also shoot the 200 hybrid but it is way out in the neck. I would have to jump the 185 Juggernauts a lot to use them in this barrel.
Laurie, where are the 155s seated in a barrel throated for 230s?
You can't sensibly do that Tony. The 210 Berger LR BT and 155.5 are compatible it seems, although it's not a set-up I've tried and I don't know how much jump the latter takes. (My experience of this bullet is that it's remarkably jump tolerant though, and I'm pretty sure that's one reason why nobody I know has switched to the same weight Hybrid, as it seems this design is not as tolerant as Berger would have us believe.)
Steve,
I don't know if it's pure coincidence or there's a direct link, but 'stonk' as both noun and verb was a British Army term for a particularly heavy artillery barrage or the laying of one such on - used for both 'outgoing' and 'incoming'. It was very widely used in WW2, maybe the Great War too, so maybe the subjective experience gained of laying down a particularly impressive amount of HE (or lying in a trench while receiving it) transferred into civilian colloquial usage as something that's effective and devastating.
(What was it George Bernard Shaw wrote? America and Britain are two countries divided by a common language. I should have remembered that this word might have no meaning to most people on this forum, so thanks for putting the explanation up.)
I don't know if it's pure coincidence or there's a direct link, but 'stonk' as both noun and verb was a British Army term for a particularly heavy artillery barrage or the laying of one such on - used for both 'outgoing' and 'incoming'. It was very widely used in WW2, maybe the Great War too, so maybe the subjective experience gained of laying down a particularly impressive amount of HE (or lying in a trench while receiving it) transferred into civilian colloquial usage as something that's effective and devastating.
(What was it George Bernard Shaw wrote? America and Britain are two countries divided by a common language. I should have remembered that this word might have no meaning to most people on this forum, so thanks for putting the explanation up.)
Getting back to the OP's question, with the 208 A-MAX or any of the bullets heavier than 185 grains or so, I believe that tracking and rifle balance are at least as important as pure external ballistics to achieving "stonking" results . In addition to his fine work with the dictionary, I know Steve has been very open about how hard he has worked on the tracking and gun handling of his F-Open rifles to get the performance he wants with the 230 Bergers; and I have had similar experiences with anything over 185 grains with my F-T/R rifle. It's not impossible. Nik Taylor won the F-T/R Worlds shooting 200 Hybrids very fast, at least for a 308, but I know his guns are designed to track well. On the other hand, Russell Simmons was shooting 155s at the Worlds, as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong Laurie), and he was only a point back from Nik.
Tony, you're correct. Russell flirted with heavies briefly two, three years back but returned to the 155.5gn Berger. He occasionally uses 185/190s, certainly for any shoots beyond 1,000 yards but I don't know about shorter distances.
Although I've still got 185s and 190s on my bullet shelf, my 308 shooting is almost entirely restricted to 155s and the 168gn Berger. With a European 'high-energy' powder not yet on general sale in the UK, I've got the latter up to the high 2,900s with apparently good precision and its paper ballistics are impressive at long ranges, but have still to see if this load and bullet will hold 1,000yd elevations as well as the 155.5 at 3,050 fps.
I found the combination of a long-forend rifle, Dan Pahlobel's 'FLEX-Pod', a very stiff and heavy rear bag as per F-Open practice, and the 155.5s at 3,050 fps easy to shoot very precisely and consistently. I've tried to sell the idea of the FLEX to other guys over here, but I think it's either too radical, or too simple maybe, for them to even give it a chance.
(Anyway ..... I'm mostly shooting F/O these days with a Barnard P in an Eliseo B1 tubegun in .284 Win. An absolute pig in bench testing loads sitting, and a dream when down prone - hardly notice the recoil.)
Although I've still got 185s and 190s on my bullet shelf, my 308 shooting is almost entirely restricted to 155s and the 168gn Berger. With a European 'high-energy' powder not yet on general sale in the UK, I've got the latter up to the high 2,900s with apparently good precision and its paper ballistics are impressive at long ranges, but have still to see if this load and bullet will hold 1,000yd elevations as well as the 155.5 at 3,050 fps.
I found the combination of a long-forend rifle, Dan Pahlobel's 'FLEX-Pod', a very stiff and heavy rear bag as per F-Open practice, and the 155.5s at 3,050 fps easy to shoot very precisely and consistently. I've tried to sell the idea of the FLEX to other guys over here, but I think it's either too radical, or too simple maybe, for them to even give it a chance.
(Anyway ..... I'm mostly shooting F/O these days with a Barnard P in an Eliseo B1 tubegun in .284 Win. An absolute pig in bench testing loads sitting, and a dream when down prone - hardly notice the recoil.)
Tony is right. In addition to jumping through many hoops to get 230's working in a 22 pound F-Open rifle, I have been unable to achieve the same in an 18 pound F-TR gun. Even running them at ~2460 fps, the recoil is simply too much for me to shoot consistently. Shot from a rest with a fore end sled, the loads are outstandingly accurate but you would never know it from my match results.
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