20 vartarg sizing question

[JohnJ73]

Hello and thank you to anyone who can help me out and make sure I'm not making a mistake.

I will soon be having two rifles built in 20 Vartarg and have recently purchased some Lapua 221 brass and Hornady full length sizing and seating dies.

Today I decided to see what kind of damage I could do resizing the Lapua 221 brass to 20 Vartarg. I lubed them up with some Imperial wax and ran them through the Hornady full length die and all seemed well until I noticed the small ridge at the bases which was prominent enough to catch your fingernail on.

In the picture the cases on either end are new 221 Lapua and the rest have been run though the die.

I'm thinking this is an issue because the Lapua brass is thicker at the base then Remington, and the die is setup for that brass.

What might I be doing wrong?

Please be patient, I'm very new to forming wildcat brass but have been reloading for precision for years.

Thank you, John.

 

[Sniper338]

I got a 20 VT coming, been doing the same thing, I have a redding 20VT full length sizer I sized mine with, did the same thing as yours at the base.. edit just not quite as bad****... Fireformimg should work it out though. after fireforming I have a redding fl neck bushing size die and a wilson inline seater... As long as your chamber is made for lapua brass you should be fine I think. I stopped all brass prep until I get the gin in hand so I can make aure stuff works before I keep going..

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

Looks like that Hornady die is a bit tight at the base. My personal experience with Hornady's has been bad with multiple die sets having problems with similar issues so I stopped using them. I would recommend a set of Redding dies or step up to the plate and buy the best which would be a custom set of Whidden dies.

 

[jobhopper66]

Perfect timing for this post as I am in the same boat as you guys. My die set up is the same as Sniper338 so I can't wait to see my results. Looking forward to other opinions.
Thanks,
Ray

 

[Skunce]

I had Whidden make a custom Vartarg die for me. Sent them some fired cases to measure. My Hornady die does the same thing to Lapua brass along with over working the necks.

 

[NorCalMikie]

One pass thru a Redding 20 VT full length die should get you your VT brass, ready to load. I use mostly fired Remington .221 Fireball brass to make the VT with no issues. Had issues with the Zip Spindle on the Hornady die so I stayed away.
If and when making VT brass from .223 or 5.56 LC brass, I ran into issues of scuffed brass just above the base. Die chamber body too small. Cured that by using a Lee Bulge Buster die that takes care of the scuffed lower section after the case is formed.

 

[JohnJ73]

I got a 20 VT coming, been doing the same thing, I have a redding 20VT full length sizer I sized mine with, did the same thing as yours at the base... Fireformimg should work it out though. after fireforming I have a redding fl neck bushing size die and a wilson inline seater... As long as your chamber is made for lapua brass you should be fine I think. I stopped all brass prep until I get the gin in hand so I can make aure stuff works before I keep going..

This is interesting that you had the same issue with Redding dies. I was just reading on Saubier.com where a member was having the same ridge with Lapua brass and his Hornady dies and figured the dies were setup for the Remington brass.

I may be wrong but I'm thinking that after fire forming when I run them through this or another die again they will get this ridge at the base again since my reamer will be made for the Lapua brass.

Now correct me if I'm wrong on this. The bulge buster die mentioned above seems like it would squeeze the Lapua brass to the Remington base diameter which would work in a standard chamber made with a reamer for Remington brass. I have not ordered a reamer yet so I may have some options.

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

Best option is to have a JGS reamer made to spec with the Lapua brass and then have a Whidden custom die set made to match. Yes it will cost a little extra to do it this way but it will work out well in the end.

 

[Sniper338]

This is interesting that you had the same issue with Redding dies. I was just reading on Saubier.com where a member was having the same ridge with Lapua brass and his Hornady dies and figured the dies were setup for the Remington brass.

I may be wrong but I'm thinking that after fire forming when I run them through this or another die again they will get this ridge at the base again since my reamer will be made for the Lapua brass.

Now correct me if I'm wrong on this. The bulge buster die mentioned above seems like it would squeeze the Lapua brass to the Remington base diameter which would work in a standard chamber made with a reamer for Remington brass. I have not ordered a reamer yet so I may have some options.

mine squeezed the base, but not this bad as the OP had.

 

[NorCalMikie]

The "Bulge Buster" does squeeze the base and at the same time, takes off the brass ring that has formed just above the base groove. OR, chuck each case up, turn it and get after it with a file. For sure, NOT a machined surface when you're done.
And my guess is most folks that are forming to a different round won't discover the problem till it hits them between the eyes. WTF??
Nothing like a little "been there, done that" to get you up and over that learning curve/hump.

 

[L.Sherm]

Have a set of dies made for your chamber looks like to me its set up at the .200 line for Lapua brass, this will haunt you from now on if you don't. Like stated above have whiddens make you a set.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I had this issue with 6.5x47 Lapua Redding dies and Lapua brass. Sometimes the maufacturers mess up and dont fully polish out the ridge at the bottom of the die chamber. Im sure youll be able to feel or even see that small ridge in the die as well. The sizing die is hardened steel and not so easy to remove and polish metal. Best bet is to send them back to Hornady to have the issue fixed or get a different set of dies. I personally can't stand Hornady dies so in my opinion I would go with the 'different set of dies' option.

 

[JohnJ73]

Lots of great info shared here, Thank you very much.

I think I will have a custom set of Dies made up by Whidden to my reamer print, and have JGS make a reamer. Seems nothing good is fast and easy.

Does anyone have reamer specs that have proven to work well with the Lapua brass? I would prefer to not neck turn since I do not have any equipment for it and plan on making up about 1000 rounds for prairie dog hunting in the future.

Thank you, John.

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

If you want a no turn neck with Lapua brass you will want to spec the reamer with a minimum .234 neck diameter which will give you 2-3 thou clearance , also if you just plan on running 32 grain bullets a zero freebore would be best. The folks at JGS are top notch and will take good care of you, the same goes for Whidden's.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.

 

[NorCalMikie]

+1 on the .234 neck. (along with ZERO freebore) No messing with neck turning and more time trigger pulling.

 

[JohnJ73]

Thank you, yes 32 SBK's are the plan.

I will give the folks at JGS a call and do this the right way.

John.

 

[JohnJ73]

So I measured my Lapua brass out of the box at the base above the extractor groove and my Remington brass out of the box at the same point.
Lapua 221 Fireball: .375" average
Remington 221 Fireball: .372" average

This was just using a set of calipers.

After doing some more digging on this forum I have found this post where the problem was found and addressed before. Hopefully this will help someone in the future that finds themselves with the same issue.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/20-vartarg-reamer-specs-design.3868876/#post-36546424

 

[moondog]

I,m running Nosler brass in mine and have not seen that issue. I was gunna get lapua but maybe not after this! Love the VarTarg, Suppressed of course!

 

[EXTREME]

So I measured my Lapua brass out of the box at the base above the extractor groove and my Remington brass out of the box at the same point.
Lapua 221 Fireball: .375" average
Remington 221 Fireball: .372" average

This was just using a set of calipers.

After doing some more digging on this forum I have found this post where the problem was found and addressed before. Hopefully this will help someone in the future that finds themselves with the same issue.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/20-vartarg-reamer-specs-design.3868876/#post-36546424

I am surprised that you are not being chastised for calling this a "problem" with the 20 VT. I knew that this was going to be a problem long before the 221 Lapua brass came on the market and reported it on other forums about 4 or 5 years ago. The problem, as you found out, was not the Hornady dies as the Redding's do the same thing. As you have found out the problem is that the 20VT was specked 0.374" at the 0.200 datum and 0.232" at the neck to be formed from brass that measures 0.372" at the datum and forms down to a 0.012 +" neck. Unfortunately nobody told Lapua this so they specked their brass closer to MAX Saami for the 223 M, 222M and the 221 FB to better fit those Chambers. I found the same problem with my 20 EXTREME although my dies are specked to form the brass to 0.3735" at the 0.200 datum so work as long as I turn the necks to 0.012".

Getting a reamer specked for the Lapua Brass, as you have found, and having a custom die made to match are the best way for you to go. However you must be made aware that unturned necks, on the Lapua brass, will develop a donut that can lead to a dangerous situation if you seat a bullet into the donut. This can happen if you use Ramshot load data and seat the 32 and 39 BK"s to the 221 Saami COAL as they do (see drawing).

Also be aware that the 20 VT will not feed well from most top fed magazines, even the 221 FB likely because the bullets are set out too far in an attempt to reach the lands. This will be partly alleviated by doing a Zero Freebore as suggested. Also be aware that the Lapua brass will not solve the problem of high pressures if you try to do 3800+ fps with the 32 BK. As you can see the Ramshot load shows AA 2200 at 20.0C getting 3758fps but generating 60,928 PSI. I believe that the Remington brass has been blamed for the problem which has been pressures exceeding the Saami specs for these cases which is closer to 57,000 PSI. I have no problems with Remington 222 brass and Calhoun has no problem with it in his wildcats as well.

 

[JohnJ73]

Thank you for all of the info.

The magazine feeding will not be an issue with this project, I'm having two Ruger #3's in 223 re-barreled. One is my first centerfire rifle my dad gave me for hunting chucks on the farm, and I picked up another recently so the wife has one too for Pdog and sage rat hunting in the future.

John.