20 vartarg brass

[41cal]

I have some rem 221 fireball brass, but not enough. Factory brass is scarce and expensive when you do find it.
I would like to have around 500 cases and am willing to make it.
I am set up to neck turn and anneal

 

[Rick in Oregon]

I know of at least two members here that are currently forming 20VT cases from LC brass. It would be the same operation for forming to 221FB. A friend here just purchased the Redding forming die set, so I'm sure he'll chime in here with some intel for you.

Not that it matters, but I keep 1,200 formed cases for each of my 20VT and FB rifles. (Took me three years to accumulate.)

 

[JSH]

I am kind of in the same boat.
FYI you need an expander mandrel or a reamer. At least I did to get around the issues I had come up. A pretty severe donut at the bottom of the neck to deal with.
I have seen where some say just FL size in the 20VT die and shoot. Ain’t gonna happen with my barrel.
Also go one of the harbor freight mini chop saws and a few extra blades. There are some 3D printed jigs around or sale also. You will have to finish trimming them though.

 

[JSH]

1200!!? Lol the boyscout coming out in ya. Be prepared.

 

[Rick in Oregon]

1200!!? Lol the boyscout coming out in ya. Be prepared.

I live for squirrel and chuck shooting, so once the season starts, I want to have as much loaded ammo on hand so as to never run out. I'll reload when the snow is flying, I want to shoot when the sun is shining!

(Yup, Boy Scout and U.S. Navy, plus retired so plenty of time to putter about. )

 

[L.Sherm]

Do yourself a favor and get Bullberry forming dies and you can use them to make 20VT brass and just about any other brass from 223 brass or neck down and brass from 30-17 cal. Ive even used mine to make Badger brass from straight wall 30 carbine cases. Chop saw from harbor freight with a stop makes cutting the long necks off really quick. Get and extra blade also.

 

[41cal]

The only brass that I can find now is once fired lake city or new winchester ( red bag).
If you had to choose between these two, what would you go with?

 

[SmokinJoe]

Another good forming die set is from pbike, or uthinkuknow, his dad. They are both on this site. For these cases you may also need an extended shellholder. This process is not particularly difficult, just a bit of work.

 

[SmokinJoe]

I am kind of in the same boat.
FYI you need an expander mandrel or a reamer. At least I did to get around the issues I had come up. A pretty severe donut at the bottom of the neck to deal with.
I have seen where some say just FL size in the 20VT die and shoot. Ain’t gonna happen with my barrel.
Also go one of the harbor freight mini chop saws and a few extra blades. There are some 3D printed jigs around or sale also. You will have to finish trimming them though.

If you have doughnut issues you may not be turning into the shoulder quite enough, might need a different angle on your cutter also. Would recommend working out your turning regimen to solve this problem over reaming the necks. To me, reaming is is the last option. And yes, you will need a good mandrel die also. Some good ones from K&M, 21st Century, etc these days.

 

[SeabeeKen]

I have the redding forming dies and they work fine. High plains brass makes 20vt from military cases as well. I bought some a few yrs ago and it works fine, however, The necks were thick and needed to be turned.
Checked their site. Everything is backordered but it says 17FB is short wait time. You can neck that up.

 

[Rick300]

Do yourself a favor and get Bullberry forming dies and you can use them to make 20VT brass and just about any other brass from 223 brass or neck down and brass from 30-17 cal. Ive even used mine to make Badger brass from straight wall 30 carbine cases. Chop saw from harbor freight with a stop makes cutting the long necks off really quick. Get and extra blade also.

This. One other nice thing about a forming die is that you can turn the necks as a .20 cal and get the thickness exactly where you want it rather than guessing before reducing them with a bushing die. I've only made 100 since getting my Bullberry, but it's not hard, just tedious. I also got the chop saw from Pearl Harbor Freight and you can either get a jig off Ebay or I just drilled and tapped for a flat head screw in the jaws for a stop. Makes it easy peasy

 

[JSH]

If you have doughnut issues you may not be turning into the shoulder quite enough, might need a different angle on your cutter also. Would recommend working out your turning regimen to solve this problem over reaming the necks. To me, reaming is is the last option. And yes, you will need a good mandrel die also. Some good ones from K&M, 21st Century, etc these days.

That’s what I did was roll the donut outside with a reamer and turned it off. A lot of guys don’t do that as you mention and still have issues.

The reason I mentioned the reamer is some cases I necked down were going to need a huge amount of brass removed. The reamer would remove the donut and brass, but still turn the outside to square everything up.

I still don’t see how some say they push a shoulder back and trim a 223, load and shoot.

Jig

Reloading Tools | 3D Printed 300 & 8.6 Blackout, 6.5 Creedmoor Jig

If you are looking for custom made 3D printed reloading jigs for a variety of shell sizes, contact the team at Elite 3D Design today!

elite3ddesign.com

Money well spent.

 

[JSH]

Another good forming die set is from pbike, or uthinkuknow, his dad. They are both on this site. For these cases you may also need an extended shellholder. This process is not particularly difficult, just a bit of work.

Are they still making these? I thought I saw pbike sold the last of them and was making no more a while back?
I hesitated at that time and regretted it ever since.

 

[JSH]

This. One other nice thing about a forming die is that you can turn the necks as a .20 cal and get the thickness exactly where you want it rather than guessing before reducing them with a bushing die. I've only made 100 since getting my Bullberry, but it's not hard, just tedious. I also got the chop saw from Pearl Harbor Freight and you can either get a jig off Ebay or I just drilled and tapped for a flat head screw in the jaws for a stop. Makes it easy peasy

A .204-.205 mandrel may still be needed to get the ID correct.
I had not been on the lathe in quite a while. Fired it up Saturday and spun up a mandrel, “mandrels”, lol. I was sneaking up on .204……….polished and measured, .199 WTF? Oh well that one went to a .172+ as I had wanted one anyway.
Tried again…….another brain fart, my marks equal a total of .002.
Third time was a charm .204+.

FYI to those with a dog in this fight. The Redding 20VT die with no bushing left my ID right at .204. I still had to run the mandrel in to roll the donut out in order to turn it off.
Also on the Redding die, it was scraping/shaving brass off of the neck. There was a sharp edge, maybe a slight burr all the way around before it entered the bushing. I was able to polish it off with some lapping compound.
It was shaving enough brass it was leaving it and building up at the shoulder and leaving some ugly on cases.

 

[chuckshooter]

I have some rem 221 fireball brass, but not enough. Factory brass is scarce and expensive when you do find it.
I would like to have around 500 cases and am willing to make it.
I am set up to neck turn and anneal

In my experience, Rem 221 fireball brass is not holding up compared to brass that has been made from 223. I never got a chance to try lapua 221 brass, so not able to compare to those. I use and recommend redding forming dies, but I've heard good things about blueberry dies, just never used them. there's a lot post's on this forum about making vartarg brass. Including a video I made about "making vartarg brass" from 223. Also a quick Google search "making vartarg brass " and you'll see post from just about every forum out there. Good luck, vartarg's are my favorite. I'm currently reloading from squirrel shooting early this year. 300 to go and ready for the next trip.

 

[SShooterZ]

The only brass that I can find now is once fired lake city or new winchester ( red bag).
If you had to choose between these two, what would you go with?

Personally I like LC brass. They seem to hold the primer pockets longer than the Winchester brass I’ve had. It’s a little thicker so turning necks is a must, but for me, it’s lasted for more firings.

 

[TheCZKid]

I've posted recently about my process of making 20 VT brass from LC, and so far I've had good success. I just reviewed my procedures and made a short "how to" doc for myself (so I won't forget), which I'll paste here.

20 VarTarg brass from 223 (rev. 2/2025)​

Convert LC 5.56 brass: Clean, Swage &, Primer Pocket Uniform, flash-hole deburr, before sizing.

• Form cases with Redding Form Die #1 (90101)
• Next, use Redding 20 VT Type S bushing die, with guts removed, necks it down further.
• Anneal neck and shoulder to dull red, to soften neck & shoulder.
• Size with Redding 20 VT body die, to get final case formed with Base to Shoulder 1.086” or less.
• Use mini chop saw, and trim neck off, length 1.410” or slightly longer.
• Trim neck to bring case length to 1.390” to 1.395”.
• Chamfer and deburr the neck end.
• Expand neck interior with Redding Type S die 20 Cal. expander ball .2025” NO bushing for Hornady
• Or – Expand with K&M 20 Cal expander mandrel, to use K&M Neck Turner
• Neck- turn wall to .0120” - .0125” thickness.
• Chamfer outside of neck again, polish with 0000 steel wool.
• Size necks with 225 bushing (to precede neck expansion sizing).
• Expand necks with K&M -.002 = .2025” (same as Redding ball) or -.003 = .2015” tension mandrel.
• Lube inside of necks with Neolube #2 for consistent bullet tension.

This process has given me loadable brass after the last step. I've not run into a donut forming inside the necks, they seem to be equidistant top to bottom.

I've heard good things about LC brass from those who make 20 VT from it, not sure about any others, as I haven't used any. You swage the primer pockets once, they're good to go.

As far as turning the necks, I do cut the necks so the blade angle just barely hits the shoulder and makes a nice angled cut parallel to the shoulder angle.

 

[JSH]

Czkid and I have been swapping info back and forth, hoping to keep clutter to a minimum on the thread.
Do some serious measuring on what equipment you have that you are going to use.
The donut I am getting may or may not be from the die I am using to form brass with, it is the Redding 221 trim die. I am moving a lot more brass at one time than the above.
He is using Hornady equipment and it is .202. I am using Forster and the trim and neck turning spud/mandrel are both .2035 and .204.
His formed brass will fit his equipment. Thus me needing a .204 mandrel to get correct ID. He has some steps I don’t do, yet I have steps he doesn’t do.

This project is not for the faint of heart, lol.
Some may be able to load and shoot with no extra work, I am happy for ya.
I want my cases to be able to go from 221 to 20VT or 17FB, which ever may be needed.

Loading up to head West about 7 hours to fire form brass . I can handle the wind hope no rain or snow, yes a year ago it snowed and sleeted for a day and a half. The day before that it was in the 90’s with AC running. Lol, none of us had more than thin long sleeve shirts. Ever try to find an insulated jacket in the spring, then need at least one of 3x or 4x,

 

[Rick in Oregon]

This has been a very informative thread. Thanks to those that have provided some good technical input, and to TheCZKid for some very good photos of the progression of the process.

JSH: Me and my crew can sure relate to your comment "it snowed and sleeted for a day and a half". We went to our usual ranch here two weeks ago for ground squirrels and spent a week of below freezing temps, constant wind of 30+ mph and sideways blowing snow. We spent a lot of time watching movies in the trailer.

This was the scene that is usually nice and green with squirrels frolicking about everywhere:



Ole Mother Nature can sure throw a curve ball to rat shooters when least expected.....dangit!

 

[41cal]

Thank’s for all the suggestions.
The response has been above and beyond what I expected, I had several members pm me with suggestions and info and I also talked to a few members on the phone. For everyone that has responded, thank you.
It is greatly appreciated.
Czkid, that is a very detailed tutorial, thanks for that.