20 VarTag, advice needed

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

after few years I am thinking about re-starting the 20 VarTag project, but before I do so, I have a few questions.

My means of a background, I have a Remington 700 .221 Fireball action and a 6 grove, 11 twist barrel. I also have 100+, mostly, Lapua .221 Fireball cases.

(i) Cases

I understand that 20 VarTag cases can be reformed from .221 Fireball cases. What would be the "best" die for this? By "best" I mean one that produces consistent result and will not wear out. Although as always a price is a consideration, if there is a significantly better die, using my buy once, cry once philosophy, I will acquire it.

I understand that Lapua ceased production of the .221 Fireball cases. Are there other producers of such cases? How are you acquiring new cases, e.g., re-forming them from another parent case, e.g., 223?

Would the situation be better with other cases, e.g., Remington 222?

(ii) Bullets

If the conclusion is to proceed, I would like to build a few dummy loads using the different cases to measure the dimensions (especially the neck), so that I can acquire an appropriate reamer. What would be a good bullet to use with the above-mentioned barrel so that I do not buy something I will not use?

(iii) Reamer

It is my understanding that with mild loads and quality barrel, the barrel will last tens or firings. Considering that my friend, an aerospace machinist and gunsmith, will do the work, would it be worth to buy or rent a reamer?

Please note that I am quite an ignoramus in this area, so if I omitted any essential information, please let me know.

Kindest regards,

P

 

[chuckshooter]

a simple google search will give you all the answers you seek, this subject has quite honestly been beaten to death. I'm not trying to be mean or rude, I'm just saying if you go looking , you will find.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Full length 20 VT die will get the job done.
Only issue I had was fired .221 Fireball resized to 20 VT were all over the place as far as neck size. New fireball brass to 20 VT was pretty consistent.
I went with a .234 neck reamer and never had to bother turning necks. Never was really impressed with the 20 VT.
My .221 Fireball works just fine thank you.

 

[lawman29]

SELLING - 20 Vartarg Brass - Matching Lake City Brass, 600 available

Offering 20 Vartarg caliber brass, ready to load. 600 of Lake City matching 2015 year brass, with .0125" neck wall, good for all chamber $110 per 100 shipped priority Primer pockets swaged with Dillon Super-Swager, formed with Redding dies, trimmed, chamfered & deburred necks, primer pockets...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[B23]

Why not just go straight 20-221? No need for special dies, a regular 221FB bushing die set with the correct size bushing is all you need and you're off to the races spending more time shooting and less time tinkering. Nothing against the 20VT but a 20-221 nearly mirrors it so why spend the extra time and money.

 

[tjtjwdad]

Cases; hate to hear Lapua quit making them. Nosler or Norma "may" be a source. Remington & Winchester use to make 221 & 17 Fireball brass, whether or not they still do is unknown to me. When I built my 20VT years ago, I bought 1100 Remington 17 Fireball cases. In those days the cost was $15-$20 per 100. I don't know if anyone manufactures them at this time.

In times past, I have seen advertisements from people who will make it. If I had to resort to making them I'd probably use USGI 5.56/223 brass. FWIW, I have found that 17 & 20 caliber components are quite scarce and have been for a while. My barrel is a 1-12 twist using 32 grain bullets. You can form the cases from any of the parent cases.

Dies; I use Redding but they were much cheaper then than they are now. Across my calibers I use a variety of dies, RCBS, Redding, Hornady, Bonanza, Dillon, Lyman, Lee and they have all worked for me.

Reamer; I used the dimensions from The Woodchuck Den, when I did mine. I'd check with a tool & die maker to see what they have.

Barrel Life; I imagine it's pretty darn good. It's not an overbore cartridge. Accuracy is subjective to one's requirements. If you're tryin to drive nails 200 yards away. If you can withstand a slightly larger group, you should get a lot of life from the tube.

 

[JSH]

I and several others gave up and made our own 221 parent brass. I won’t ever buy any more 221 or 17FB brass unless it is cheap and a large lot.

Virgin commercial brass reformed gives way better result than pickup stuff out of the parking lot.
I can’t say if I ever “wore” out a die. If I did I would sure brag about it, lol.
I went with a 20VT because I had dies. As B23 mentioned the 20-221 is a bit less hassle and dies are cheaper usually.
I shoot nothing but 32-34 grain bullets in mine, speed freak.
Also as mentioned there is a huge amount of discussion on this subject.

When you typed in the heading for the thread it should have brought up several possible subjects already being discussed.

 

[mefizto]

Hi chuckshooter,

thank you for your reply, which assumes that I did not do search. However, as I noted, I am not experienced in this area, my reloading was limited to pistol cartridges, so all this terminology, e.g., shoulder bumping die, bushing die, etc. are new to me.

Furthermore, the recommendations are all over. For example, I found recommendation to use Redding .221 full-length sizing die, and then (somehow) resize the neck, but that does not seem correct as according to SAAMI, the shoulder angle is different. In contrast NorCalMikie writes "Full length 20 VT die".

Although you are perfectly entitled to your response, without trying to be mean or rude, why did you even bother?

Hi NorCalMikie,

thank you for your reply. The following is exactly the issue I have with this new area:

Only issue I had was fired .221 Fireball resized to 20 VT were all over the place as far as neck size.

I had measured the Lapua cases by first sliding a .0221 machinist's pin into the case, some required 0.220, and then measuring the outside diameter and calculating the wall thickness. they were rather consistent. So, I do not understand why resizing them would result in the effect you describe?

Hi lawman29,

thank you for your reply. This does not appear to be a source of steady supply, as far as I can tell.

Hi B23,

thank you for the reply. If I understand it correctly, I would only need to resize the neck with the "bushing die" and not need to reset the shoulder angle, correct? Does a reamer exist?

​

Hi tjtjwdad,

thank you for your detailed reply.

Re the cases, I did with quite a success (two rejects of 100), reformed .223 brass into .221 Fireball, using a Redding .221 full-length die. But, as noted above, I did not know how to go from there and the wall thickness at the neck portion is about 0.002 inch greater than the Lapua, which makes sense as the case thickness changes with length.

Thank you for the bullet recommendation, my barrel twist is close, so I will order some samples of that weight.

I had been using Redding dies on pistol cases so i will acquire them for the rifle also.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[mefizto]

Hi JHS,

thank you for the reply.

Re the cases, as per my reply to tjtjwdad, I did make some .221 Fireball cases, but I did/do not know how to continue from there and deal with the thicker neck wall portion.

As per my reply to chuckshooter, I did my search, but what might appear clear to you, who have been doing this for eons, some of the issues are clear as mud to me.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[L.Sherm]

If you use Lapua brass make sure its the correct reamer for Lapua 221 fireball brass for the 20VT the .200 line and nk needs to be bigger than other brass.
Its gonna be same thing if its just a 20-221, personally I'm a big fan of the 20VT.
Moving shoulders forward is no big deal done correctly its no different than shooting any other new brass, just do load development just like any other cartridge with new brass it can be just as accurate as formed brass ive do enough of it to prove to myself its true.
Here is an example how accurate forming AI case can be, these are just neck down 22PPC cases to 20 cal load and shoot to make 20PPCAI.

 

[17VLD]

Very nice shooting Sherm!
Would you share the velocity of the 20PPCAI once formed and firing the 40 grain class of bullets.

Matt

 

[Rick300]

If you don't want to buy already formed brass and can't find new brass, then a Bullberry forming die gives you lots of brass options

 

[B23]

Hi B23,

thank you for the reply. If I understand it correctly, I would only need to resize the neck with the "bushing die" and not need to reset the shoulder angle, correct? Does a reamer exist?

​

That is correct and why I like straight neck down wildcats, especially, when there is so very little gained.

I mean no disrespect but if you aren't particularly versed on wildcats and or fireforming I think you'd likely be better off with a straight necked down cartridge like the 20-221 instead of the 20VT.

As was already mentioned by L.Sherm since you are using Lapua 221FB brass you'll want to make sure you discuss that with the gunsmith that'll be chambering your barrel so they can use the appropriate reamer for Lapua brass especially with regard to neck diameter because you'll want to make sure you have enough neck clearance. You want a reamer that has a .235 neck diameter for a no turn using Lapua brass.

Kevin Weaver is a good gunsmith and I believe Kevin has a couple different 20-221 reamers on hand. Kevin would be a good one for you to talk and build it for you.

 

[L.Sherm]

Very nice shooting Sherm!
Would you share the velocity of the 20PPCAI once formed and firing the 40 grain class of bullets.

Matt

3900 forming brass, I havent ran it up to its potential yet with formed brass but I know some get 4100FPS or right at it.

 

[L.Sherm]

Matt ive shot enough AI stuff now if I build anymore 17 or 20 cals they will be AI's from now on.

 

[mefizto]

Hi Rick300,

thank you for your suggestion.

Hi B23,

thank you for the clarification and a recommendation.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[snert]

Mefitzo,

Since you are rebarreling anyhow, why not simply do a 20/222?

I have a 20 VT. I have a 222. I just had to have a 20 VT so I had a 10tw Hart chambered for a BAt SV. It is fun. I have 700 LC brass that was made by a seller here on AS. I had to neck turn them, but that was no big deal. I shoot 34 gr Dogtown bullets (I bought 5000) . It shoots well. I run it at 3700-3800 fps. I imagine it will last forever. I use Redding bushing dies becuase I occasionally use a few Remington brass and need a different bushing. I FL size with the bushing die. I have two seasons of PD shooting now with the gun.

If I were to do it again I would build a 20/222. Simple simple. Redding 222 FL bushing die, 20 cal appropriate bushings. Neck it down and go. Easy to get decent brass, and it lasts. No big deal and it is "more betterer" without being overbore stupid.
The VT is a niche cartridge and has its certain sexiness...but at a cost of hassle and difficulty getting brass. 222 Brass isn't as easy as 223, but it isnt terrible either.

I'd go 20/222 and not look back. And I would use 33 grain Bergers or 40 grain bullets. An 11 twist will get finicky with some 40's, but much has to do with the barrel, the altitude, the speed and the true twist, as much as the bullet itself.

 

[mefizto]

Hi snert,

thank you - with reluctance - for your answer.

The reason for the "reluctance" is that when I thought that I had it all figured out with the help of two generous gentleman of the forum, you have to come in and throw a curve ball at it.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Evan]

When Lapua made 221 fireball and the hornady 20 Vartarg die set was on the shelf for $40, the Vartarg made tremendous sense. With the current availability, I agree with @snert that I would go 20-222 using starline brass and a redding FL bushing die, both of which are available right now.

 

[L.Sherm]

If ease of availability comes into the pic 223 brass and dies for a 20 Prac wins, but hell I never got into the wildcat game because of ease or to save money.