1st Focal Plane or 2nd Focal Plane scope for varmints

[1K6BRA]

Geewhiz, I have been so busy shooting local varmints and such,keeping rifle barrels clean and ammunition reloaded for my second focal plane scopes I can barely keep up with all this reading! When I miss my next varmint I will blame it on my focal plane

 

[people]

I have used both and for hunting I like second focal better. With your scope set to low power on a ffp the recital can be hard to see when it is low light conditions.

 

[nmkid]

I like the discussion. At 73 years young, I'm getting ready to go the FFP route with my 22 Creedmoor. We shall see!

 

[muleystalker]

2nd FP is ideal because ground squirrels are very small creatures. But, there are certain FFP scopes that have very thin reticles. Of course with really thin reticles in FFP, you can see small targets better at long range on high mag, but then barely make the reticle out on the lowest power settings. I personally find it frustrating.

Unless you plan on using the reticle to range objects on various magnification levels, the FFP holds no advantages. Even certain 2nd FP reticles can range when set to the correct power. If using a laser rangefinder, there's no reason for a FFP reticle.

Even if you plan on ranging with a FFP, it will never be as precise as a LRF. I personally wouldn't even want to mess around with the math of how a ground squirrel measures up in a FFP reticle for ranging. Just my opinion

You usually don't need the reticle substations on low power, most FFP scopes when you turn the power down to low you don't loose the reticle, its just hard to make out the substations, The reticle ends up looking like a Duplex reticle with thick outer post and the fine center reticle. i have killed many animals in low light conditions with FFP scopes on low power. Here is an example of the night force MIL R the first pic is on low power the second is on high power. http://nightforceoptics.com/sites/default/files/NFO_MILR_20160114.pdf

 

[muleystalker]

The only reason I bought some SFP scopes were for 1000yd F=Class, I used a 5-20 MIL FFP and it worked but to progress I wanted a finer reticle that my scope had but more importantly I wanted 1/8" moa adjustment/finer turret adjustments. There are some good FFP scopes in .05 mill adj. and nice retile substation reticle with a small flowing dot like the ones March offers but finances forced me to go with a nice used NF comp match and used ATACR with the MOART reticle because the prices I got them for.

 

[Montana89]

I have 3 scopes with the ffp gen2xr reticle, two Schmidts and a premier. This reticle is fine enough to shoot prairie dogs at distance. Most reticles found in the current ffp platforms are capable of doing this. The only reticle I had an issue with being fat at distance was the march 3-24 FML, that scope sits on a dedicated coyote rifle, so that's a non issue . Having one less thing to remember "which power the scope is on, in regards to a hold over , or hold off," is handy. Both ffp and sfp have a place, I just find the ffp a little more user friendly .

 

[fredo]

As Muley mentioned above, FFP subtensions only really become apparent when the mag ring is cranked up to engage at increased distance. On lower power, the 'inside' hashes on a decent FFP reticle will just melt away, leaving a simple crosshair aiming point (or dot) to use for close-in or snap shots. To further enhance low mag engagement, a decent FFP reticle will likely have thick outer posts that 'draw your eye' to center, same as a SFP duplex reticle might do. In essence, the 'inside' hashes are there when you'll need em (high mag), and not when ya don't (low mag)...

After reading this thread, it becomes even more apparent that SFP is actually the more 'specialized' scope...given its limited ability. The only place a SFP really shines at all, is on high/super high magnification range, and used on small/super small targets...like dots on paper, or some teeny tiny vermin. For nearly every other type of shooting, the FFP scope is quite a bit more versatile. Ignorance of that versatility is what this thread is all about discussing & de-bunking. So far, so good!

P.S. if your (very fine) FFP reticle is getting 'lost' at low light, and/or obscured in fine brush, it may just be the wrong reticle to hunt with. But, you can still turn ON the illumination! Most every good scopes now come with illum, so USE IT! Heck, back when Nightforce first released it, I useta hunt with an NXS NP-R1 (SFP) reticle, and it was absolute garbage for low light shooting (hunting). The only saving grace was the illuminating reticle. But that's not to say ALL SFP reticles suck @ low light, I just was using the wrong tool for the job...

That was MY fault, for not choosing wisely!

 

[Milo 2.0]

I'm lost on how old men are turning the magnification down. I'm trying to ready a hunting rig for a kid, I slapped a Leupold VX3 14 power on the rifle, so I shot a group at 500 on steel, I had to drive down to verify it.

 

[JRS]

I'm lost on how old men are turning the magnification down. I'm trying to ready a hunting rig for a kid, I slapped a Leupold VX3 14 power on the rifle, so I shot a group at 500 in steel, I had to drive down to verify it.

When was the last time you had your eyes examined? Cataracts, perhaps? I will soon have new lenses on both eyes.

 

[msinc]

You can get the duplex reticle in a number of their variable power scopes also. I prefer fixed power FFP scopes. I purchased my S&B 8x56 with the duplex also.

You like to argue and I am really not trying to get you going on this....I seriously want to know...if it's a fixed power scope what's the difference??? Who cares if it's SFP or FFP if the power is fixed???? All you see is a non magnifying reticle that does not change because there is only one power so how could anyone even tell if it's FFP or SFP????

 

[dkhunt14]

When was the last time you had your eyes examined? Cataracts, perhaps? I will soon have new lenses on both eyes.

I very seldom turn under 32x. Matt

 

[Milo 2.0]

I very seldom turn under 32x. Matt

Lol, 20 minimum here.

 

[JRS]

You like to argue and I am really not trying to get you going on this....I seriously want to know...if it's a fixed power scope what's the difference??? Who cares if it's SFP or FFP if the power is fixed???? All you see is a non magnifying reticle that does not change because there is only one power so how could anyone even tell if it's FFP or SFP????

No argument, no difference. I grew-up using FFP scopes and prefer them, whether fixed or variable. I also prefer fixed power scopes due to the simplicity, and they are almost always lighter in weight than a variable, along with the peace of mind that because there is no erector assembly in there, that's one less thing to go out of whack/fail. My preferences, nothing more.

 

[msinc]

No argument, no difference. I grew-up using FFP scopes and prefer them, whether fixed or variable. I also prefer fixed power scopes due to the simplicity, and they are almost always lighter in weight than a variable, along with the peace of mind that because there is no erector assembly in there, that's one less thing to go out of whack/fail. My preferences, nothing more.

Okay, I understand and I agree 110%...I definitely prefer and most of my scopes are fixed power as well. Apparently so does the U.S. Army because it was only fairly recent that they got away from fixed power scopes for their snipers.

 

[AckleymanII]

I use second FP on p. dogs, chucks all have target knobs. 6.5x20 smallest magnification I would use, mostly 6x24 and 8x32.

Many years ago, I tried fixed power, 12x, 16x, 20x, and 24x. Today, I would not spend money on any kind of fixed power scope as they seem under powered or over powered.

I do not aim center of mass, but pick a place on the animal I want to hit. This is more humane, and helps me get dialed in.

My preference is thin cross hair. When shooting p. dogs, we use simple wind flags and dial in for wind/elevation before we fire the first shot. We are twisting on the knobs all day long. We fire the first shot, then adjust cross hair to the bullet hole, then clean them all out. Two p. dogs will clog a hole. You need exact bullet placement in case you need to put some English on one.

 

[people]

P.S. if your (very fine) FFP reticle is getting 'lost' at low light, and/or obscured in fine brush, it may just be the wrong reticle to hunt with. But, you can still turn ON the illumination! Most every good scopes now come with illum, so USE IT! Heck, back when Nightforce first released it, I useta hunt with an NXS NP-R1 (SFP) reticle, and it was absolute garbage for low light shooting (hunting). The only saving grace was the illuminating reticle. But that's not to say ALL SFP reticles suck @ low light, I just was using the wrong tool for the job...

That was MY fault, for not choosing wisely!

Stuff fails and batteries die usually when you need them.

One thing to be concerned with is using the illuminated recital is they are not legal to use in some states.

I like the np-r1for dark conditions it was better than the np-r2 which came first. Either do work well in my experience with SFP. What was really a bad deal with NF with the old system you had to open up the scope and manually adjust the rheostat before you ever go out. It was a bad system.

My take away from all of my experience is this. If it is day light hours just pick one or the other it does not matter. It is really a personal preference. When it on the ragged edge of light for shooting SFP scopes give an edge that FFP just do not have if you are not allowed to use the light.

I hunt at night almost every night. In that environment thermal and NV are the only way. I have two basic set ups for the farm. I have a day rifle with a SFP scope as it can get dark before I get inside. Then my night setup.

These discussions are like the "I want to shoot 1k" discussions. They always get down to one very small aspect that has two camps. Each get the job done the end user will have to do it them self to figure out what works for them. Sadly in this case it involves buying two high dollar scopes. Granted that is cheaper than hunting at night.

 

[fredo]

I've owned/shot NXS scopes in both 3-15x and 5.5-22x, and with both NP-R1 and NP-R2. All the R1 is, is a more 'busy' R2' that allows 1MOA on the vertical and 2MOA on the horizontal. The main reticle and crosshairs are both equally fine, and both equally lacking in bold outer posts that might otherwise aid in a close target @ low light. In short, they stink for hunting. And if your state don't allow illum scopes, then you're really up chit's creek...

As for batteries going dead, I haven't ever had it happen in the field? For as cheap as a CR2032 is, I put a freshy in before the start of hunting season. On top of that, carrying one isn't about as heavy as a nickel, so only a dummy would not carry a spare, somewhere, while afield...

Back to the aforementioned R1/2 for hunting. A FFP Gen2Mildot reticle has proven FAR superior, for hunting at any hour, day or night. Find a scope in 3-15x or more with a Gen2Mildot, and give it an honest evaluation. After shooting through both, the choice was obvious to me. You've effectively got a duplex on low mag, useable subtensions and a finer aiming point on higher mag. AND, a bonus of the center '+' aiming point having the option of being illuminated...

This ain't about being in a "camp", at all. It's about trying and recommending stuff we've used and tried, and providing pros & cons for others to learn from. If you haven't shot thru both SFP and FFP, in a variety of styles, to judge for yourself, you're just guessing...

 

[people]

No it is a camp kind of thing. The camps break down to a personal preference.

You do not like the r1 because it is more busy? That is fine. I have both the r2 and r1. I like the extra lines because the r2 at least on mine they are spaced 2moa apart and 5 on the horizontal. But again a personal preference. Kind of like using a horus reticle. Some love them and others do not. On a FFP on low power seeing a spash from a bullet can be challenging some times. If you are shooting during day hours and higher powers they are great.

I do like your battery comment. You know darn well most out there do not go over their stuff nor change batteries. With that being said a new battery will not help you if your illumination breaks. Yes I have had one break while hunting. My state allows farmers and ranchers well it basically removes all of the rules the rest of the citizens need follow.

A little self braging time. As stated above I hunt almost exclusively when the sun is not up. Yes it is on a almost daily basis. I will skip a day every once in a while. I would say I am hunting at night over 300days a year. I have more night and very dim light experience than most if not all here. My choices are because it allows me to shoot when most are still in bed.

With that being said you need to get out there and see what works for you. Fredo and I can only tell you what works for us. You need to get out there and see what equipment works for you and your style of hunting.

 

[HillBilly98]

I was shooting at a range last week. The laser range finder would not shoot to the last berm. Some of us have argued back and forth that it is not 750 yards. While range was safe I went out to about 350 yards and shot it both ways. I repeated at a little further distance. I came up with a pretty good deviation. I was there to simply verify my charts on a rifle and wanted to know for sure. I later went to the last berm and measured horizontal distance between two of the target post. Recorded the mills through the scope and did the math. It came out to 742 yards. Now I don’t know why the range finder was reading off but It is nice to have a back up method. A FFP or fixed power in my case makes that a little easier.

As far as no need to range... wouldn’t it require the same for accurate wind holds? I promise I’m not trying to argue I just think there is a place for the FFP or fixed power. But then again I don’t like electronics. I like printed charts and back ups that do not require batteries. I have bad luck with that kind of stuff

 

[fredo]

No it is a camp kind of thing. The camps break down to a personal preference.

You do not like the r1 because it is more busy?

Nope, because it is too fine. R1 & R2 are both equally thin, therefore difficult to discern when there is scattered brush/sticks, etc., in the field of view, behind. The only solution to 'losing' the reticle, is to light that sucker up!
For shooting a 'runner' (coyote), either one is HORRIBLE, as there is precious little in the way of reticle thickness that helps your eye 'center' the target in the field of view, and hold off, accordingly. Whereas, a properly spec'ed FFP reticle will have thicker outer bars that provide aid to get ya lined out on one. In that regard, the aforementioned Gen2Mildot is excellent at doing just that. And, when the magnification is turned up to any setting, it is still perfectly usable & allows for a precise hold off. Where again, the SFP reticle has to be set to a given 'ranging' power. No, thanks...too limiting!!!

I do like your battery comment. You know darn well most out there do not go over their stuff nor change batteries. With that being said a new battery will not help you if your illumination breaks. Yes I have had one break while hunting.

I've had a vehicle break down while hunting, too. But that is certainly not a logical reason for not relying on it, otherwise. Just sayin', if the potential for breakage/failure is a reason NOT to use a particular tool, then you're pretty much NOT gonna use any tool, at all...

On a FFP on low power seeing a spash from a bullet can be challenging some times.

Not tracking here, at all?
How does the reticle position affect seeing bullet "sp[l]ash"? Are you implying that the 'thickness' of a FFP reticle is enough to cover/occlude seeing "sp[l]ash"? If so, I will again disagree with that assertion. Whether its shooting a 'practical' match, plinking, chuckin', or whatever...I've not experienced any challenges to acknowledge & quickly correct for, a "sp[l]ash" (miss) If anything, the FFP reticle allows the shooter to 'measure' the distance of the impact away from the actual target, and holder over that amount as a correction...

Glad to hear you're blessed to hunt as much as you do! Just offering up some points again for others reading along to muse over?

Happy hunting!