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1k inconsistencies with 223

Need some help on what to try next to reduce vertical with the 90's at 1k. I shot a two day match this weekend and dropped at least 25 points to vertical each day. My best string was a 193 5x and I had 7 shots drop just low of the 10 ring all of which were in a fist size group. We were shooting on a target cam system that gives your at target velocity and all of the low and high shots for the 2 days were 25+ fps different that the 10's and X's. Shooting over the chrony during load development I have a 15fps ES with a sd of 7 and a 100 yard 5 group in the zero's to .2's. As far as I've tested was 300 when zeroing for the match and covered 7 shots with a quarter with the same load. I thought that it might be internal volume inconsistencies that were causing the fps issues and high and low shots. I took a screen shot of the target cam which had each bullet impact numbered and kept all my ammo in the order in which it was fired. When I got home, I pulled the high and low shot brass and weighed the cases for internal volume of water. What I found was there was .3gr total dispersion of all the 9's shot during the 2 day match. Some bullets that impacted 18" vertically from another on the same string had identical case weight and internal capacity. Before the match all brass was weight sorted. All loads were charged on Fx-120i scale that measures to the kernel, and all bullets were seated on a Hydro Press and were within 4lbs of seating force and base to ogive of loaded rounds measured to within .001. The match was as calm for two days on the first two strings as one could ever ask for with a 0-3mp wind from right to left, I dropped only a few points horizontally. One thing I did find was that the strings with 22-26lb seating force grouped considerably tighter vertically than the 16-20lb strings but I still dropped 7+ shots out of 20 to vertical on those. This is a target I shot, the brass from 10 and 1 were identical. Shots 2,16,17,18 all impacted just low and had identical velocities. Any ideas on what to try next.
 
I had the same happen to me yesterday shooting 80.5 Berger Fullbore bullets at 600 yards. The rounds were loaded with 23.9 grains of Varget seated 0.026" off lands and were shot out of a Savage LRPV with a 26" barrel. At 300 yards, the same combination resulted in a score of 199-10X (20 shots) and yesterday I dropped 14 points in two strings of 15 rounds each.
There was hardly any wind and the target plot looked almost exactly like the one posted by jsthntn247. I had verticals both above and below the intended point of impact.

I couldn't explain it but I am thinking that it could have been a case of my bipod moving slightly up/down since there was a lot of grass under my shooting mat and that could have caused certain variations in the way the bipod moved.

Not sure though.
 
I don't shoot FTR, but my verticle is usually a result of inconsistent neck tension.
I suffered the same results with my Dasher yesterday at 1K. 😩
 
Load is 24.5 grains of Varget Wade. This was new brass that I lubed the necks and expanded on a k and m mandrel prior to loading. Charges were weighed to 24.50 exactly and each rounds seating force was grouped from 16-20lbs and 22-26. I shot some left over rounds this afternoon at 300 over the chrony. Group was .85" for the 11 shots but the es was allot higher than I thought. Do yall normally see the es go down on fired prepped brass?
 
I have a friend taught me this neat little trick. Load the rounds that dropped low and the rounds that grouped center on that day exactly the same but keep them separate. At the next chance you get to shoot them at 1k try them for group. If the ones that dropped low do it again it was something with the case. If you get another string of FPS changes then it is something to do with rifle or environmental factors. My guess though is there was a tail wind/head wind some were between the shooting line and target that wasn't steady. I only go this path as your running a cartridge on the outer limits of what a vast majority of "shooters" believe a 223 is capable of.
 
I don't know if you are there or not in your barrel, but that charge is exactly where I saw a big change in MV (81 FPS jump in MV) doing my load workups. I dropped down to 24.3 grains to get away from that, there is something going on with the pressure/burn there in my rifle.

I was getting in the range of 17 or 25 FPS or so per .2gr increase working up from 23.6 then BANG it jumped 81FPS from 24.4 to 24.6, then made a scatter group at 24.8.
 
Id like to be able to get up to the 25.2 node but I can't without pressure. Even considered hbn coating a few and trying it. Same way with 4895 If I get above 23.9 I see pressure.
 
jsthntn247 said:
2775, 29.5

That is almost exactly where mine were at the same load in a 30" barrel. Right now I'm running them at 2700 with 24.3 Varget, but I'm only shooting them to 600 so the MV isn't quite as big an issue to me.

I'm running LC brass and Tula 223m primers
 
Ok, The one im building right now is going to have a 32" 1-6.7tw finished and I will be running Varget. My goal is 2850 with Lapua Brass.

John
 
I'm not usually the guy who immediately falls back to QL, I don't even own it, but does anyone have any data that shows that a 223 can keep pushing to the end of a 32? Two or three yrs ago I tried a 34 on a 308, it was slower than a 30 with the same Varget load. That last two inches you lost your push. I lopped it at 32 and shot it out.

I know Laurie says his 31" was the best he ever had it.

You can always take some off, it's damned hard to get it line up to weld more on.

With a tube that long you may be better with N150.
 
raptor1ronin said:
Ok, The one im building right now is going to have a 32" 1-6.7tw finished and I will be running Varget. My goal is 2850 with Lapua Brass.

John

Yea I wanted 2850 also, but I blow primers when I got up that high. Tried 23.8, 23.9 and 24 gr of 4895 this afternoon. Two shots at 23.8 was all I needed to see, serious ejecter marks, just pulled the rest. I also shot 24.5 of varget again with more neck tension and it shot lights out and the muzzle velocities were allot more consistent (sd 5) in the once fired brass with shoulders bumped .001. I wont get to shoot 1k again to the Tullahoma state match, so I got a while to fine tune it. I'm bound and determined to make long range master with this thing, lol.
 
Not sure about the quality of Winchester brass to lapua, but with Winchester brass you should be able to get 2850 Fps easy with 30" barrel.
My chrony crapped out so I can't be sure but QL predicts my velocity around 2830 Fps with 28" barrel. I use 24.4 grains of H4895, not 100% sure about coal, have to check my notes.
 
jsthntn247 said:
raptor1ronin said:
Ok, The one im building right now is going to have a 32" 1-6.7tw finished and I will be running Varget. My goal is 2850 with Lapua Brass.

John

Yea I wanted 2850 also, but I blow primers when I got up that high. Tried 23.8, 23.9 and 24 gr of 4895 this afternoon. Two shots at 23.8 was all I needed to see, serious ejecter marks, just pulled the rest. I also shot 24.5 of varget again with more neck tension and it shot lights out and the muzzle velocities were allot more consistent (sd 5) in the once fired brass with shoulders bumped .001. I wont get to shoot 1k again to the Tullahoma state match, so I got a while to fine tune it. I'm bound and determined to make long range master with this thing, lol.

My buddy Scott Harris on this forum runs an identical set up minus the 2" extra I have on my barrel and uses H4895 and gets 2850 no pressure signs as his son shoots right next to me sometimes. The gun shoots lights out. We have defiance actions.
 
are you jamming your bullets at all? I have found--in my 6BR f-open rifle--that imr 4320 shoots at a higher velocity than my previous varget load before hitting pressure. I am running about .6 grain more with 4320 than the old varget load with great accuracy. 4320 also has smaller kernel size than varget and burn rate is similar. I am also jamming .015 ITL. have you tried trimming necks to consistent diameter to get more consistent neck tension? I know it is 6BR vs. .223--just a thought.
 
jsthntn247 said:
raptor1ronin said:
Ok, The one im building right now is going to have a 32" 1-6.7tw finished and I will be running Varget. My goal is 2850 with Lapua Brass.

John

Yea I wanted 2850 also, but I blow primers when I got up that high. Tried 23.8, 23.9 and 24 gr of 4895 this afternoon. Two shots at 23.8 was all I needed to see, serious ejecter marks, just pulled the rest. I also shot 24.5 of varget again with more neck tension and it shot lights out and the muzzle velocities were allot more consistent (sd 5) in the once fired brass with shoulders bumped .001. I wont get to shoot 1k again to the Tullahoma state match, so I got a while to fine tune it. I'm bound and determined to make long range master with this thing, lol.

Can you make Oak Ridge either day this weekend?
 
raptor1ronin said:
...
My buddy Scott Harris on this forum runs an identical set up minus the 2" extra I have on my barrel and uses H4895 and gets 2850 no pressure signs ...

John, we have two barrels:

30" = 2790 w/ 24.0 gr H4895 .020 off the lands w/ .200"ish FB
32" = 2830 w/ 24.0 gr H4895 .020 off the lands.

Chono'd these last weekend since we were testing a new barrel at 1K. It was a little erratic the first string, but then settled down and shot well. I try to run same brass, load for all barrels to simplify things. My load development consists of finding where .020" off the lands is and putting enough powder in the case to get around 2800fps (32" barrel) and single-digit SD. If the SD is higher than that, I try to figure out how I am messing up the brass prep because that is the usual culprit.
 

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