• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

1917 Spoterized Enfield with no caliber marking

Think I will punt on this one. After research sounds like to many issues can arise out of re-barreling an Eddystone action. Guess I will hold out for a Savage Action if I want to do something different.
I understand you have made your decision, and I am not questioning it, however, I have a Winchester made 1917 that my father bought me new early in the 1960s. It is my first rifle. It was "sporterized" as we called it back then. The "ears" were ground off and the duck pond filled. It had iron sights dovetailed to the barrel and a nice walnut stock with monte carlo comb. There is a simple trigger guard inletted into the stock and the stock is straight to the forend. No belly.

The barrel at first sight looks like an aftermarket barrel, and is not stamped with 30-06, but looking closely at the underside of the barrel on mine will show faint cartouche markings consistent with the original barrel, action etc. I can't prove it but it sure looks like they left the original barrel on the rifle and just polished it to remove any rough spots.

Jim
 
Last edited:
That's actually an entirely different action. Your Mk 4 is a rear lug action. The M1917 has more in common with a Mauser 98 than the SMLE. The 1917 does have a M1914 counterpart that was produced in .303 for England

Heck I got curious an had to go to the safe and look -- mine is a Number 4, Mark 1.. How the hell is anyone sposed to remember this stuff. :rolleyes: jd

Not only two (very) different rifles and actions, but different periods and wars.

The original UK Lee rifles went back to the 1880s, first in long barrel form with initially Metford Rifling, then with the move to Cordite loaded ammunition, the deeper-groove Enfield form (hence Lee-Enfield). As was common worldwide there was a long infantry rifle and a short-barrel cavalry carbine. It was this series that was mostly used by British Empire troops in the second Boer War (1899-1902) against Afrikaaner 'Boer' white settlers/farmers in South Africa. The Boer militiamen used 7X57mm M1895 Mausers primarily as mounted infantry and such was their riding, fieldcraft and shooting skills (allied to the very accurate Mauser rifle and cartridge) that initially at least the Empire forces came off worst.

Post Boer War the British War Office and ordnance departments developed a single short 'universal' rifle, the SMLE that covered all military roles - infantry, cavalry, artillerymen, engineers, bicycle troops etc, the original adopted in 1903 and by WW1 developed through various improvements to the Mk III version.

The SMLE Mk III (later renamed Rifle No.1 MK3) was the best battle rifle of the period, but various parties hated it and used the British Army's performance in the Boer War with its older LLE version to rubbish it. There was constant lobbying to change to a Mauser type front-locking action design with a high-performance flat-shooting 7mm cartridge. (But not the Mauser / Boer 7X57 - it had to have a bigger case, hotter propellant and higher MV.) Such a rifle and cartridge were developed until 1912 and were semi-adopted as a troop-trials rifle in 1913. Using an older nomenclature system this was named the Pattern of 1913 model, or P'13. Troop trials didn't go well for various reasons, mostly because a far too high-pressure cartridge loading was adopted (the .276 Enfield cartridge), but problems would likely have been solved and the rifle / cartridge eventually replace the SMLE and .303 MkVII cartridge. However, the outbreak of war in 1914 killed that off and the British Empire went war with the SMLE Mk III (except Canada which had adopted a home-grown service rifle, the straight-pull Ross Mk III).

Not long into the war and Enfield Lock and BSA who manufactured SMLEs couldn't make nearly enough to supply a massively growing army and replace losses in combat. So, the British Government went to arms companies in the USA and said please bid to make them for us. No go! RSAF Enfield Lock developed rifles were made and checked using patterns and gauges, not toleranced drawings which American industry needed. As the P'13 had such, Remington (I think) agreed to redesign the 276 P'13 to feed and chamber the 0.303" round and Winchester, Remington Eddystone, and Remington Ilion were contracted to make the new version, named the Pattern 1914, or P'14 as everybody calls it. Eventually in late 1916, early 1917 the Brits had enough rifles and terminated the P'14 contracts throwing three factories out of work.

However, shortly afterwards the USA entered the war and lo and behold its army didn't have enough M1903s and Springfield and Rock Island Armories couldn't make them fast enough to supply a massively growing army ....... etc, etc. So the US government asked Remington to redesign the rifle for a second time to accept and feed the .30-06 ball round. Again renamed, you have the US Model of 1917 (M1917) made in the same three American factories until the end of WW1 when the US Govt contracts were terminated.

Between the wars, neither country had any money for the military so most everything froze as per 1918 with little development, at least in infantry weapons. British Ordnance looked closely at the SMLE and drew up a list of faults, primarily a very light, thin barrel that overheated in rapid fire and a too light receiver with weak sidewalls. Along with other improvements such as a receiver mounted aperture rear sight, a new model was developed, tested and named the No.4 Rifle. There was no money to re-equip the British forces so the design sat on the shelf and none were made after the limited number manufactured for troop trials. Come 1939 and the Army was massively expanded and there was nothing like enough production capacity (plus RSAF Enfield Lock switched over entirely to making BREN LMGs) ........ and you know the old story! So, as well as three new English arms factories being built and lots of components outsourced to repurposed consumer manufacturers (like the Singer Sewing Machine Co. in Scotland making rearsight assemblies), manufacture was again contracted out to North America to supplement domestic production. The production rifle was called the Rifle No.4 Mk1 and was made by the Canadian Long Branch arsenal and Savage Arms at Chickopee Falls, Mass as well as in England. It is the best of the Lee series in terms of strength, function and accuracy, but lacks the iconic looks of the older SMLE and its super-smooth quick-working action.

Post WW2, and especially post 1957 when the Brits adopted a version of the FN FAL 7.62 rifle, millions came onto the surplus market. Many went to Asian governments especially India (where there are probably some racked even today in rural police stations), the new state of Israel and so on. Others went into private hands worldwide both to recreational military rifle shooters and deerstalkers (deer hunters to you) in sporterised form. In fact, 'tuned' No.4s were the backbone of British and British Commonwealth formal long-range target sling-shooting until 1967/8 when custom single-shot 7.62mm / 308 'Target Rifles' replaced the old 303s on Bisley and other ranges.

In the UK and Canada, the P'14 model followed a similar course - mothballed in 1919 as a secondary weapon, reissued in 1939 (in some cases as sniper rifles due to their inherent accuracy). There was a wrinkle in that with the USA neutral in 1939/40 and Britain desperately short of rifles (again!!), thousands of M1917s were taken out of store and supplied to the Brits by the US Government under the Lend-Lease Acts. This meant that there were two outwardly identical rifles with different chamberings issued to second-line units. To differentiate them, the M1917s had red stripes painted around the forends and buttstocks. Many (of both types) went to the Home Guard, a part-time militia intended to assist the regular forces in the event of German invasion of the British Isles. Post 1945, as per the No.4s - sold to other countries or on the surplus markets and used by UK target shooters in both .303 and rebuilt as 7.62 'Target Rifles' in the 1st Gen 'TR' rifles in 1968. Or sporterised as per the subject of this topic. IME, if well done they are far superior to the No.4 sporting rifle conversions. Also the P'14 receiver is long and strong enough to handle large belted African Dangerous Game cartridges. and no change is needed to the P'14 bolt-face for 'magnums'. Art Alphin (A-Square) built several of his African rifles on this action, mostly the cheaper models in his catalogue.
 
P14,s have a differenr extractor than P 17, s they also have left hand twist in the rifling.
Yep, still pretty easy though. If you want to cut the original style bolt lug clearance on the back of a 14 barrel, you'll need a rotary. I usually modify the left front bolt lug to match a M1917 contour. This allows the P14 barrel to be cut with a cone just like the 17's. Then you just add the 2nd narrow extractor cut for the front of the extractor claw.
20220409_131403.jpgIMG_2221 (Medium).JPGIMG_2224 (Medium).JPG
 
If it's 2 land rifling, it's probably still 303. jd
They also put 2 groove replacement barrels on 1917 Enfields in 30-06 if memory serves me correctly.

All the original barrels made at the factory on a new gun for those and it doesn't matter if it was 303 or 30-06 where all 5 groove and all left hand twist.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
1917's the originals were all 30-06. The P-1914's were the 303 British.
Put a 308 cal bullet in your pocket and just see if it slips in. If it does, it's the 303, if it just does fit it should be a 30-06.
Won't work....

A 30cal bullet is .308" diameter for the most part... the bore size on a 303 is .303". How are you going to get a .308" diameter bullet to go into a .303" bore size? The 30cal bullet is still .005" bigger than the .303" bore.

If the bullet goes in all the way.... the muzzles crown/bore is severely worn/damaged and is then oversize either way. That's another reason I hate the stupid bullet test that guys say.... muzzle crown or wear is good but they have no clue what real damage even looks like to the crown or the bore of the barrel.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
I'd offer Bass Pro less money as others have suggested.

Get it home or take it to a gunsmith and pour a chamber cast. That should tell you what it is chambered in.

You don't like the caliber get it rebarreled.

Putting only a few hundred dollars in the initial buy if it has a nice stock and gunsmithing work done to it... you won't be losing any money per se.
 
If it's 2 land rifling, it's probably still 303. jd

They still turn up. When I worked for a northern England gun business 25 years ago that did quite a bit of buying and selling on the international surplus market , it bought in 20 or 30 0.303 Canadian Long Branch No.4 Mk 1* models. Most were two-groove and looked unused. In any event they soon sold on to other shops as well as direct to individual shooters despite the widespread view that there is a prejudice against this form by collector/shooters.

Won't work....

A 30cal bullet is .308" diameter for the most part... the bore size on a 303 is .303". How are you going to get a .308" diameter bullet to go into a .303" bore size? The 30cal bullet is still .005" bigger than the .303" bore.

If the bullet goes in all the way.... the muzzles crown/bore is severely worn/damaged and is then oversize either way. That's another reason I hate the stupid bullet test that guys say.... muzzle crown or wear is good but they have no clue what real damage even looks like to the crown or the bore of the barrel.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I saw a guy with a newly purchased WW1 dated 303 SMLE on a range once who just could not get it to shoot. He only got a single bullet onto the target frame and that cut a perfect sideways profile of the Mk VII 173gn bullet. We'd all looked down the barrel and the bore and rifling looked really crisp. Then someone pushed the bullet of an unfired 303 round into the muzzle - and it was an easy, even loose fit despite the crown being apparently perfect - obviously bored and rifled to something bigger than 303. (It was chambered for the 303 alright and fired cases hadn't bulged or split.) I long wondered what bore it actually was and the explanation for it ending up on an otherwise unremarkable SMLE.

303 service rifles came in quite a range of groove diameters, some so oversize they barely performed with standard dia. jacketed bullets. But they could go the other way too. I owned a mint 1943 dated Indian SMLE for some years that shot 150gn FMJBT 308 bullets very well. (I should have mentioned in my potted history of the Lee models and P'14/M1917 that Australia and India had their own small arms factories at Lithgow New Sth Wales and Ishapore in West Bengal respectively, and didn't adopt the No.4, making SMLEs until after WW2. The New Zealand Army also mainly stayed with the SMLE only receiving them in quantity in 1948.)
 
I understand you have made your decision, and I am not questioning it, however, I have a Winchester made 1917 that my father bought me new early in the 1960s. It is my first rifle. It was "sporterized" as we called it back then. The "ears" were ground off and the duck pond filled. It had iron sights dovetailed to the barrel and a nice walnut stock with monte carlo comb. There is a simple trigger guard inletted into the stock and the stock is straight to the forend. No belly.

The barrel at first sight looks like an aftermarket barrel, and is not stamped with 30-06, but looking closely at the underside of the barrel on mine will show faint cartouche markings consistent with the original barrel, action etc. I can't prove it but it sure looks like they left the original barrel on the rifle and just polished it to remove any rough spots.

Jim
Its definitely aftermarket. Still at Bass Pro. Looked at it again today. The profile of the barrel is the same as a Sako, mid weight hunter. If I just looked at the barrel crown and barrel and nothing else I'd say Sako. It's the first thing that came to mind until I saw the rest of the gun. Not saying its a Sako barrel. But, its definitely not a 1917 barrel; I've owned one. The blueing on the barrel is gorgeous! The gun is gorgeous! Someone jeweled the bolt, polished the handle. Blueing is deep Blue. Dang, the Lyman Peep sights are awesome. Barrel length is 26". Everything thing I've ever wanted in a rifle. I love peep target sights. But, I've been lured in before once and got a lemon! Did I mention it has a beautiful aftermarket wood stock . Nice cheek weld puts your eyes right on those peeps.I'm in a major quandary. They said they would work with me on a trade for my Tikka T3 .243.
Also, 4 groove barrel.
 
Last edited:
Not only two (very) different rifles and actions, but different periods and wars.

The original UK Lee rifles went back to the 1880s, first in long barrel form with initially Metford Rifling, then with the move to Cordite loaded ammunition, the deeper-groove Enfield form (hence Lee-Enfield). As was common worldwide there was a long infantry rifle and a short-barrel cavalry carbine. It was this series that was mostly used by British Empire troops in the second Boer War (1899-1902) against Afrikaaner 'Boer' white settlers/farmers in South Africa. The Boer militiamen used 7X57mm M1895 Mausers primarily as mounted infantry and such was their riding, fieldcraft and shooting skills (allied to the very accurate Mauser rifle and cartridge) that initially at least the Empire forces came off worst.

Post Boer War the British War Office and ordnance departments developed a single short 'universal' rifle, the SMLE that covered all military roles - infantry, cavalry, artillerymen, engineers, bicycle troops etc, the original adopted in 1903 and by WW1 developed through various improvements to the Mk III version.

The SMLE Mk III (later renamed Rifle No.1 MK3) was the best battle rifle of the period, but various parties hated it and used the British Army's performance in the Boer War with its older LLE version to rubbish it. There was constant lobbying to change to a Mauser type front-locking action design with a high-performance flat-shooting 7mm cartridge. (But not the Mauser / Boer 7X57 - it had to have a bigger case, hotter propellant and higher MV.) Such a rifle and cartridge were developed until 1912 and were semi-adopted as a troop-trials rifle in 1913. Using an older nomenclature system this was named the Pattern of 1913 model, or P'13. Troop trials didn't go well for various reasons, mostly because a far too high-pressure cartridge loading was adopted (the .276 Enfield cartridge), but problems would likely have been solved and the rifle / cartridge eventually replace the SMLE and .303 MkVII cartridge. However, the outbreak of war in 1914 killed that off and the British Empire went war with the SMLE Mk III (except Canada which had adopted a home-grown service rifle, the straight-pull Ross Mk III).

Not long into the war and Enfield Lock and BSA who manufactured SMLEs couldn't make nearly enough to supply a massively growing army and replace losses in combat. So, the British Government went to arms companies in the USA and said please bid to make them for us. No go! RSAF Enfield Lock developed rifles were made and checked using patterns and gauges, not toleranced drawings which American industry needed. As the P'13 had such, Remington (I think) agreed to redesign the 276 P'13 to feed and chamber the 0.303" round and Winchester, Remington Eddystone, and Remington Ilion were contracted to make the new version, named the Pattern 1914, or P'14 as everybody calls it. Eventually in late 1916, early 1917 the Brits had enough rifles and terminated the P'14 contracts throwing three factories out of work.

However, shortly afterwards the USA entered the war and lo and behold its army didn't have enough M1903s and Springfield and Rock Island Armories couldn't make them fast enough to supply a massively growing army ....... etc, etc. So the US government asked Remington to redesign the rifle for a second time to accept and feed the .30-06 ball round. Again renamed, you have the US Model of 1917 (M1917) made in the same three American factories until the end of WW1 when the US Govt contracts were terminated.

Between the wars, neither country had any money for the military so most everything froze as per 1918 with little development, at least in infantry weapons. British Ordnance looked closely at the SMLE and drew up a list of faults, primarily a very light, thin barrel that overheated in rapid fire and a too light receiver with weak sidewalls. Along with other improvements such as a receiver mounted aperture rear sight, a new model was developed, tested and named the No.4 Rifle. There was no money to re-equip the British forces so the design sat on the shelf and none were made after the limited number manufactured for troop trials. Come 1939 and the Army was massively expanded and there was nothing like enough production capacity (plus RSAF Enfield Lock switched over entirely to making BREN LMGs) ........ and you know the old story! So, as well as three new English arms factories being built and lots of components outsourced to repurposed consumer manufacturers (like the Singer Sewing Machine Co. in Scotland making rearsight assemblies), manufacture was again contracted out to North America to supplement domestic production. The production rifle was called the Rifle No.4 Mk1 and was made by the Canadian Long Branch arsenal and Savage Arms at Chickopee Falls, Mass as well as in England. It is the best of the Lee series in terms of strength, function and accuracy, but lacks the iconic looks of the older SMLE and its super-smooth quick-working action.

Post WW2, and especially post 1957 when the Brits adopted a version of the FN FAL 7.62 rifle, millions came onto the surplus market. Many went to Asian governments especially India (where there are probably some racked even today in rural police stations), the new state of Israel and so on. Others went into private hands worldwide both to recreational military rifle shooters and deerstalkers (deer hunters to you) in sporterised form. In fact, 'tuned' No.4s were the backbone of British and British Commonwealth formal long-range target sling-shooting until 1967/8 when custom single-shot 7.62mm / 308 'Target Rifles' replaced the old 303s on Bisley and other ranges.

In the UK and Canada, the P'14 model followed a similar course - mothballed in 1919 as a secondary weapon, reissued in 1939 (in some cases as sniper rifles due to their inherent accuracy). There was a wrinkle in that with the USA neutral in 1939/40 and Britain desperately short of rifles (again!!), thousands of M1917s were taken out of store and supplied to the Brits by the US Government under the Lend-Lease Acts. This meant that there were two outwardly identical rifles with different chamberings issued to second-line units. To differentiate them, the M1917s had red stripes painted around the forends and buttstocks. Many (of both types) went to the Home Guard, a part-time militia intended to assist the regular forces in the event of German invasion of the British Isles. Post 1945, as per the No.4s - sold to other countries or on the surplus markets and used by UK target shooters in both .303 and rebuilt as 7.62 'Target Rifles' in the 1st Gen 'TR' rifles in 1968. Or sporterised as per the subject of this topic. IME, if well done they are far superior to the No.4 sporting rifle conversions. Also the P'14 receiver is long and strong enough to handle large belted African Dangerous Game cartridges. and no change is needed to the P'14 bolt-face for 'magnums'. Art Alphin (A-Square) built several of his African rifles on this action, mostly the cheaper models in his catalogue.
great report
 
They still turn up. When I worked for a northern England gun business 25 years ago that did quite a bit of buying and selling on the international surplus market , it bought in 20 or 30 0.303 Canadian Long Branch No.4 Mk 1* models. Most were two-groove and looked unused. In any event they soon sold on to other shops as well as direct to individual shooters despite the widespread view that there is a prejudice against this form by collector/shooters.



I saw a guy with a newly purchased WW1 dated 303 SMLE on a range once who just could not get it to shoot. He only got a single bullet onto the target frame and that cut a perfect sideways profile of the Mk VII 173gn bullet. We'd all looked down the barrel and the bore and rifling looked really crisp. Then someone pushed the bullet of an unfired 303 round into the muzzle - and it was an easy, even loose fit despite the crown being apparently perfect - obviously bored and rifled to something bigger than 303. (It was chambered for the 303 alright and fired cases hadn't bulged or split.) I long wondered what bore it actually was and the explanation for it ending up on an otherwise unremarkable SMLE.

303 service rifles came in quite a range of groove diameters, some so oversize they barely performed with standard dia. jacketed bullets. But they could go the other way too. I owned a mint 1943 dated Indian SMLE for some years that shot 150gn FMJBT 308 bullets very well. (I should have mentioned in my potted history of the Lee models and P'14/M1917 that Australia and India had their own small arms factories at Lithgow New Sth Wales and Ishapore in West Bengal respectively, and didn't adopt the No.4, making SMLEs until after WW2. The New Zealand Army also mainly stayed with the SMLE only receiving them in quantity in 1948.)
We made special 30cal test barrels several years ago for subsonic testing in 308win. Besides the standard min spec. Of the .300” bore… we also made .303” bore barrels and .305” bore barrels. If I recall correctly all .308” groove size. The .303” bore barrels shot pretty good but the .305” bore size barrels didn’t shoot good at all. Makes sense… the lands are only .0015” tall per side in that .305” bore size barrels. Not enough lands there to drive the bullets.
 
Last edited:
The Criterion short chambered 1917 replacement barrels are pretty darn nice for the cost. They are timed with extractor groove, too. I like my Eddystone 1917 sporter. Though I have more little detail type work into this than making it look pretty, it feeds great, shoot perfectly fine and being a new barrel I dont worry too much about round count.

I say offer a little less, go get some boxed ammo and see what it'll do.

Screenshot_20180107-123855.png
 
The Criterion short chambered 1917 replacement barrels are pretty darn nice for the cost. They are timed with extractor groove, too. I like my Eddystone 1917 sporter. Though I have more little detail type work into this than making it look pretty, it feeds great, shoot perfectly fine and being a new barrel I dont worry too much about round count.

I say offer a little less, go get some boxed ammo and see what it'll do.

View attachment 1706558
Does yours still cock on closing?
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
167,072
Messages
2,226,937
Members
80,176
Latest member
toddmcfadden
Back
Top