185 BT Long Range Bergers, your opinion
- Thread starter DennisH
- Start date
Dennis, I've shot the 190 VLD Berger quite a bit and have recently been shooting the 185 LRBT. For a given throat length, the 185 is not as deep into the case, which leaves more room for powder. More importantly, the 185 is a simpler bullet to get shooting well from a .308 because it's less fussy about seating depth and the .308 has a fairly short neck.
Another big consideration is the shorter bearing surface of the 185 LRBT, that allows for a higher MV with the same pressure. For a 1000 yard load, that's important.
Over the past few months, I used the 185 in my F-TR rifle to win the Arizona Long Range Championship, the Arizona Palma Championship and a third place finish in the Berger SW Nationals. I still have a lot of the 190 VLD's but I'll use them in the .30-06 for prone shooting where the longer case neck and higher powder capacity make the 190's limitations less important.
Another big consideration is the shorter bearing surface of the 185 LRBT, that allows for a higher MV with the same pressure. For a 1000 yard load, that's important.
Over the past few months, I used the 185 in my F-TR rifle to win the Arizona Long Range Championship, the Arizona Palma Championship and a third place finish in the Berger SW Nationals. I still have a lot of the 190 VLD's but I'll use them in the .30-06 for prone shooting where the longer case neck and higher powder capacity make the 190's limitations less important.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
@ German Salazar
Thanks for the info: Sounds great, I have heard similar statements and I tried the 185's yesterday and was impressed.
I am shooting mine out of a 28" 10twist barrel and shot some impressive groups.
I found the 185's like to .010 off the lands on my gun. I was told to try this from others as the bullet is not really a VLD. So far it's working.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you recommend as far as seating, and what powder did you have the best luck with? What speed did you obtain the best results?
Looks like the bullet I will start using, I have shot 190's for two years, again, just heard the 185's might be a better choice!
Thanks for your valueable input, Dennis
Thanks for the info: Sounds great, I have heard similar statements and I tried the 185's yesterday and was impressed.
I am shooting mine out of a 28" 10twist barrel and shot some impressive groups.
I found the 185's like to .010 off the lands on my gun. I was told to try this from others as the bullet is not really a VLD. So far it's working.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you recommend as far as seating, and what powder did you have the best luck with? What speed did you obtain the best results?
Looks like the bullet I will start using, I have shot 190's for two years, again, just heard the 185's might be a better choice!
Thanks for your valueable input, Dennis
Dennis, I seat them 0.020" into the lands and I use H4895. Take into account that I use moly and my barrels are 29." to 30" long, so my MV and yours would be different by quite a bit. Work on the accuracy with the charge; with the high BC of the 185, the MV will be high enough for good 1000 yard performance with a reasonable charge weight.
This might be a useful article for you: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-load.html
That's one part of a five-part series, the whole thing is useful, but that one hits some of the main challenges.
This might be a useful article for you: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-load.html
That's one part of a five-part series, the whole thing is useful, but that one hits some of the main challenges.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
.020 in, interesting, I will start there and back off and see if anything happens.
I put 4 of 5 shots in the same hole yesterday (40.0 grns Varget) and was very impressed with the bullet! I think I got nervous on the 5th shot, that's the one I messed up on!
Still shocked on the .020 in with this bullet!
I put 4 of 5 shots in the same hole yesterday (40.0 grns Varget) and was very impressed with the bullet! I think I got nervous on the 5th shot, that's the one I messed up on!
Still shocked on the .020 in with this bullet!
jbpmidas
MR F-T/r
I think at 40.0 Varget, your velocity is going to be on the low side. I'm at 43.0 with the Hybrid 185, and my chrono'ed velocity is 2660. The good news is, with that low of a charge weight, you should have plenty of room to move up to the next, maybe even the second, accuracy node.
I am shooting my Hybrids -.010. The BTLR's I tried worked well at that jump also.
I am shooting my Hybrids -.010. The BTLR's I tried worked well at that jump also.
Leaddog
F-Class T/R
.010 to .020 works for me in my 10 twist 28" Hart. Just make sure that you aren't seating the bullet too far into the case. I've found that this bullet likes to be seated with the pressure ring right at the neck/shoulder junction. I have a tight bore and can run a little less Varget than some, but it is still more than you. At 2580 to 2600 it's a one holer at 100 yards and less than 1" of vertical at 600. I haven't shot this new barrel at 1000 yet, but expect it to do just fine.
Bottom line..... This bullet is very tolerant of seating depths. Shoot with a chrono and get your SD's in the low singles, and you are there. After that, it's up to you. Don't waste a lot of time doing load development. Spend your time shooting at distance and honing your wind/mirage reading skills.
Bottom line..... This bullet is very tolerant of seating depths. Shoot with a chrono and get your SD's in the low singles, and you are there. After that, it's up to you. Don't waste a lot of time doing load development. Spend your time shooting at distance and honing your wind/mirage reading skills.
Robert, I don't currently plan to switch to the Hybrid. I won 9 boxes of bullets at the Berger match and took them all as the regular 185 LRBT. The main reason is what Charlie said in his post - once you have a good load (and I think I do) it really just comes down to reading wind, knowing when to shoot and when to wait, and executing the shot perfectly. I don't want to spend a lot of time, money and effort reinventing the wheel (my load) for a fractional gain in BC.
I shoot a Browning A-Bolt (Composit Stalker). This rifle is a 300 Win. Mag. that I've accurized using nothing but factory parts. It shoots almost half MOA at 300 yards with the 185 gr. Berger hunting bullet. I've never found ANY other bullet that shoots this well at 300 - 600 yards. Seating bullets out to the rifling is required for best accuracy in this rifle.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
The above bullet is different than the BT Long Range . . . .
If German Salazar states the BTLR's are the one's to go with, then I will stick with them! I by mistake ended up with a box of them and loaded some up. I was impressed with the performance which has me thinking about permanently switching to them. Then I discovered Berger offers 4 different 185's along with their hunting 185's. I haven't thought about Moly bullets, but might have to try them as well!
There are several well known shooters who use Moly coated bullets, has to be something there as well!
German, if you would like to give details on Moly, I am sure all would appreciate the response!
Thanks, Dennis
Dennis, here's a short article on how I coat bullets: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/moly-coating-salazar.html
Basically, I follow the NECO process (moly and wax). If you go to the index page for my site, you'll find a moly section with a few more moly-related articles.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html
As to why I use it, it's simply a lubricant between two sliding metal surfaces (bullet and bore) and it does a great job of reducing jacket fouling during the course of a match. That allows me to get more consistent accuracy for each 20 shot string during the day. When I get home, I clean the rifle regardless of how many shots were fired (usually 70 to 75). It's been a long time since I shot bare bullets, probably 15 years or so, but I remember loads being a little less finicky when I went to moly - that might be my aging memory talking, though.
Basically, I follow the NECO process (moly and wax). If you go to the index page for my site, you'll find a moly section with a few more moly-related articles.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html
As to why I use it, it's simply a lubricant between two sliding metal surfaces (bullet and bore) and it does a great job of reducing jacket fouling during the course of a match. That allows me to get more consistent accuracy for each 20 shot string during the day. When I get home, I clean the rifle regardless of how many shots were fired (usually 70 to 75). It's been a long time since I shot bare bullets, probably 15 years or so, but I remember loads being a little less finicky when I went to moly - that might be my aging memory talking, though.
Dennis, everything I shoot it moly-coated, so I just have the one process.
First I run four or five patches through the bore. They are soaked in Shooter's Choice and have a drop of Kroil in the middle. I use the Bore Rider jag (and I think that's very important) for a super tight (squeaky tight) fit. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/good-stuff-bore-rider-cleaning-products.html
If I'm not shooting the next day, I just push another patch through it every morning and evening for a few days before the next step, if there's shooting the following day, I go right to the next step - which is...
IOSSO paste on a patch with the same tight jag. I push the same patch through three times, flip it over and push it through twice more. Then I run three or four wet patches through to flush it all out and four or five dry ones.
Next comes a borescope examination. I look at the rifling for a few inches ahead of the chamber, I want to see shiny metal and no copper - and I usually see just that. Then I scope the last few inches before the muzzle, because copper can build up there too. Any sign of copper means repeating the IOSSO process. When there's no copper, I'm done.
Typically, barrels don't show any copper (after the first IOSSO) until they have over 2500 rounds (.308 and .30-06). It's not a complex process, ideally I let the barrel soak for a few days before IOSSO, that lets the solvent really get to work on any copper traces, but if I can't do that, I don't worry about it too much. And yes, no brushes.
I know everyone has his own cleaning method, so I'm not trying to convince anyone that mine is good, better or best, it's just how I do it and I'm satisfied with it.
First I run four or five patches through the bore. They are soaked in Shooter's Choice and have a drop of Kroil in the middle. I use the Bore Rider jag (and I think that's very important) for a super tight (squeaky tight) fit. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/good-stuff-bore-rider-cleaning-products.html
If I'm not shooting the next day, I just push another patch through it every morning and evening for a few days before the next step, if there's shooting the following day, I go right to the next step - which is...
IOSSO paste on a patch with the same tight jag. I push the same patch through three times, flip it over and push it through twice more. Then I run three or four wet patches through to flush it all out and four or five dry ones.
Next comes a borescope examination. I look at the rifling for a few inches ahead of the chamber, I want to see shiny metal and no copper - and I usually see just that. Then I scope the last few inches before the muzzle, because copper can build up there too. Any sign of copper means repeating the IOSSO process. When there's no copper, I'm done.
Typically, barrels don't show any copper (after the first IOSSO) until they have over 2500 rounds (.308 and .30-06). It's not a complex process, ideally I let the barrel soak for a few days before IOSSO, that lets the solvent really get to work on any copper traces, but if I can't do that, I don't worry about it too much. And yes, no brushes.
I know everyone has his own cleaning method, so I'm not trying to convince anyone that mine is good, better or best, it's just how I do it and I'm satisfied with it.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
@ German Salazar
After a quiet morning, a pot of coffee, and reading many of your articles, I must state I have learned a lot in the last 3 hours!!!!
If I would have gone through your site first, I would have had about 1k "less" questions!
I recommend anyone, especially those shooting 308's to visit his site. Very impressive and informative! I plan on spending a few more hours in the site, maybe next Sunday morning!
Respectfully,
Dennis
After a quiet morning, a pot of coffee, and reading many of your articles, I must state I have learned a lot in the last 3 hours!!!!
If I would have gone through your site first, I would have had about 1k "less" questions!
I recommend anyone, especially those shooting 308's to visit his site. Very impressive and informative! I plan on spending a few more hours in the site, maybe next Sunday morning!
Respectfully,
Dennis
Dennis,
That load of 40.0 grains of varget seated to 2.218 (ogive) in my 28" Obermeyer 10 tw is light but it won me the TN Midrange State Championship in 2010. It shoots the Berger 185 LRBTs and Dietlein 185 RBBTs like a hammer and can shoot cleans at 300, 500, & 600 yards. Watch for wind changes and you will have no problems shooting it.
Allen
That load of 40.0 grains of varget seated to 2.218 (ogive) in my 28" Obermeyer 10 tw is light but it won me the TN Midrange State Championship in 2010. It shoots the Berger 185 LRBTs and Dietlein 185 RBBTs like a hammer and can shoot cleans at 300, 500, & 600 yards. Watch for wind changes and you will have no problems shooting it.
Allen
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
Just placed an order with my Berger supplier!
He called Berger as he wasn't able to order the 185 BT Long Range bullets!!
It seems Berger has changed the NAME of the bullet and part number, but I was next to the dealer when he was on the phone with Berger. They stated it's the same bullet exactly, but will have a different name!
It will be called something like the "185 GR JUGGERNAUT" Target Series,
and DON'T confuse this with the 185 GR JUGGERNAUT OTM tatical. The OTM tatical is a different bullet entirely
Hope this helps others! Had us scratching our heads for a few minutes!
Also interesting, Berger stated it is one of their best selling bullets!!!!!!
He called Berger as he wasn't able to order the 185 BT Long Range bullets!!
It seems Berger has changed the NAME of the bullet and part number, but I was next to the dealer when he was on the phone with Berger. They stated it's the same bullet exactly, but will have a different name!
It will be called something like the "185 GR JUGGERNAUT" Target Series,
and DON'T confuse this with the 185 GR JUGGERNAUT OTM tatical. The OTM tatical is a different bullet entirely
Hope this helps others! Had us scratching our heads for a few minutes!
Also interesting, Berger stated it is one of their best selling bullets!!!!!!
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