155.5 Berger Fullbore vs 168 Hybrid in F T/R
- Thread starter RHux
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Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
A few guys I shoot with use the 155 bullets, some days they do well, some not so. Wind tends to beat them a bit, if they're not shot from long barrels at fairly high velocities, especially on the small F Class target vs the LR target for Palma.
I started with the 175 SMK, but at 1K, they didn't work well, I moved to 180 & 190 JLK's and finally to the Berger 185 Juggernaught. These held the wind better and 1K scores really improved vs the 175 SMK.
Check out German's article on heavy 308's for F-TR, he knows his stuff.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/cartridges-308-heavy-bullet-conundrum.html
I started with the 175 SMK, but at 1K, they didn't work well, I moved to 180 & 190 JLK's and finally to the Berger 185 Juggernaught. These held the wind better and 1K scores really improved vs the 175 SMK.
Check out German's article on heavy 308's for F-TR, he knows his stuff.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/cartridges-308-heavy-bullet-conundrum.html
RStewart
FTR and FPR Competitor- When I Can
I shoot both .223 and .308. I shoot the 155.5's at over 3050 fps with a 30" barrel. Having shot .223, I do not notice the wind to be as much a factor at 600 yards with the 155.5's since its twice as heavy as I normally shoot in my .223.
I cant say what I can do at 1000 yards with them as I have not had a chance to try them out to that range.
But I like them.
And in answer to the original OP's question- yes, I find the 155.5 easy to tune.
I cant say what I can do at 1000 yards with them as I have not had a chance to try them out to that range.
But I like them.
And in answer to the original OP's question- yes, I find the 155.5 easy to tune.
The 155.5 is an outstanding design, a once in a generation model IMO (as is the 185gn Juggernaut). I've found the Hybrids much more sensitive to jump settings, and had to treat the 168gn model as if it were a VLD to get it to group in one of my rifles / barrels. That is, jammed ~0.015".
If you do get the 168 Hybrid to group well and it's moving out at 2,900 fps plus, it does provide excellent long-range performance. My usual 155.5 BT MV is ~3,050 and I get 2,925 fps from the 168gn Hybrid, both grouping into 0.25-0.35" at 100. The Berger / Applied Ballistics PM Ballistics Solver 2 estimates they're travelling at 1,337 fps and 1,404 fps respectively at 1,000 yards, and the 168 also sees 9-10% less wind drift. That's using Bryan Litz's average G7 BCs and in standard ballistic conditions (59-deg F / 29.92 inches mercury atmospheric pressure). That 67 fps of retained velocity alone is well worth having at this distance increasing the MACH number value from 1.18 to nearly 1.25 which should see the bullet remain outside of transonic zone speeds in most conditions.
That's despite the 168's MV being slightly lower than its 155.5gn equivalent producing 3,192 ft/lb ME compared to 3,219 ft/lb for the lighter bullet.
If you do get the 168 Hybrid to group well and it's moving out at 2,900 fps plus, it does provide excellent long-range performance. My usual 155.5 BT MV is ~3,050 and I get 2,925 fps from the 168gn Hybrid, both grouping into 0.25-0.35" at 100. The Berger / Applied Ballistics PM Ballistics Solver 2 estimates they're travelling at 1,337 fps and 1,404 fps respectively at 1,000 yards, and the 168 also sees 9-10% less wind drift. That's using Bryan Litz's average G7 BCs and in standard ballistic conditions (59-deg F / 29.92 inches mercury atmospheric pressure). That 67 fps of retained velocity alone is well worth having at this distance increasing the MACH number value from 1.18 to nearly 1.25 which should see the bullet remain outside of transonic zone speeds in most conditions.
That's despite the 168's MV being slightly lower than its 155.5gn equivalent producing 3,192 ft/lb ME compared to 3,219 ft/lb for the lighter bullet.
What powder combo did you use Laurie?
8208 XBR with 155.5s in Lapua 'Palma' brass. (Most UK long-range national league users also go for the Palma brass now, but choose either H4895 or VarGet - I'm in a minority with XBR.)
My 168 Hybrid combination could likely use any of these three powders in Palma brass too, but I happened to work it up with VarGet in thin-walled and roomy Norma cases with Fed210Ms - pretty similar to doing it in prepped Winchester brass.
Barrels are 32-inch Heavy Palmas in both rifles, a Broughton 1-10" for the 155.5 and Bartlein 5-groove 1-12" with the 168 Hybrids - no significance to the twist rates as that's what happened to be available when the rifles were built. Chambers are 'minimum SAAMI' with slightly long throats that allow the 185 Juggernaut and similar to be used if desired.) I don't feel either load that produces these MVs is absolute maximum - case life is excellent. Go much higher though, and I reckon it might be a different matter.
My 168 Hybrid combination could likely use any of these three powders in Palma brass too, but I happened to work it up with VarGet in thin-walled and roomy Norma cases with Fed210Ms - pretty similar to doing it in prepped Winchester brass.
Barrels are 32-inch Heavy Palmas in both rifles, a Broughton 1-10" for the 155.5 and Bartlein 5-groove 1-12" with the 168 Hybrids - no significance to the twist rates as that's what happened to be available when the rifles were built. Chambers are 'minimum SAAMI' with slightly long throats that allow the 185 Juggernaut and similar to be used if desired.) I don't feel either load that produces these MVs is absolute maximum - case life is excellent. Go much higher though, and I reckon it might be a different matter.
[br]Laurie said:
I've also found, as have several other forum members, that the 155.5 Fullbore / 8208 XBR combination is outstanding. That includes accuracy, ES and velocity. At the very least, it is worth a try in a given rifle.
Yes, it was from you and some others on this forum that I picked the combination up originally, even before we got 8208 XBR into the UK. Most people here reckon I'm a bit loopy using it, but as it was a new and pretty unknown powder over here, it had a really big advantage that it was readily available for a little while. I bought a couple of tins, found it worked, and bought another seven tins - all that I could get hold of. As it is now, you can't get H4895, 8208, or VarGet (not to mention the 4350s and 4831s) for love nor money here.
So, as has been the case before, thanks to guys on this forum for passing on good ideas.
So, as has been the case before, thanks to guys on this forum for passing on good ideas.
[br]TrxR said:
Yes, I've found it very temp stable. Lapua's .308 Palma brass has almost indestructible primer pockets. Not to say that you should try, but the cases hold full pressure loads well. Of course, it will work in standard brass. I've used the combo myself. However, the Palma brass seems a little better on ES and has the toughness mentioned above.
Speaking of Lapua Palma brass, I actually have thought about trying that brass if I go with a 6SLR. Because of the primer pocket and the more meat in the web.
[br]FroggyOne2 said:
I've been considering the same thing, Randy. I have a boatload of Winchester and Lapua .243 brass for my 6 SLR but Manners has had the barreled action for over a year.
I think it's time to get it back, go with a laminate stock and start shooting the damn thing. [br]If I go the Palma brass route, I think the right sequence is: [br]
1. Size with standard 7mm-'08 die
2. Size with standard .260 die
3. Size with standard .243 die
4. Clean
5. Anneal
6. Size with 6 SLR die
7. Expand neck
8. Trim
9. Turn neck
10. Clean
11. Anneal
12 . Load [br]
I know this sounds pretty involved but I'm concerned about the relatively thick Lapua case and shoulder. I can set up the first three sizing dies in my old Dillon 450, so it should go pretty fast.
anyone find the best primers to using with Palma brass? This has me interested in trying them if the pockets will last longer with "hotter" loads
[br]savageshooter86 said:
Mine work best with the same primers that work well in 6BR. i.e.: Russian SRM KVB-5.56M, CCI 450, Fed 205M. Also tried the Rem 7½ and showed promise but got sidetracked.
Steve,
I had not considered the multi step with the first three dies you list, though I did think about using the 7-08 die I have, turn the necks a tad, anneal then run them into the 6SLR die, then do a final turn on the necks and fire form in club matches. Have you considered inside neck reaming?
I had not considered the multi step with the first three dies you list, though I did think about using the 7-08 die I have, turn the necks a tad, anneal then run them into the 6SLR die, then do a final turn on the necks and fire form in club matches. Have you considered inside neck reaming?
[br]FroggyOne2 said:
I have, Randy, but have never seen concentric results except when they are single point cut in a lathe. When I get the 6 SLR back, some experimentation is in order. If it can work, it seems to me that Palma brass is the way to go. My .308 loads with 230 Hybrids and 46 grains of H4350 work well. I'm sure it would be no different in 6 SLR.
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