Berger 155.5 Fullbore and imr4064

[Michael C]

Okay so I just bought 3500 same lot Berger 155.5 Fullbore a have 24lbs same lot of 4064, gonna be hand loading for .308. It’s a 700 blueprinted action with a 30” ibi barrel 1-11.25 twist using a 2011 Fullbore chamber. Brass is all Norma, primers (5000) S&B LR. Anybody have any data on these or use (have experience) this powder bullet combo?I know most of you will say use Varget. Hmmmm, I bet I would have a easier time finding the arc of the covenant than finding Varget.

This is a traditional fullbore Palma set up for 1000 yard competition. If you’re shooting in those disciplines I suggest getting your bullets to at least 2950fps and that should be doable with what you’ve got. That bullet is very forgiving of jump and I suggest you simply set it at 20k off and then try to get the speed right. They will shoot very well at 3020fps to 3050fps.

 

[Canuckenstein]

This is a traditional fullbore Palma set up for 1000 yard competition. If you’re shooting in those disciplines I suggest getting your bullets to at least 2950fps and that should be doable with what you’ve got. That bullet is very forgiving of jump and I suggest you simply set it at 20k off and then try to get the speed right. They will shoot very well at 3020fps to 3050fps.

Can’t seat 20 off the lands Mag length. NSCC matches have relays where two shots are to be placed in under eight seconds @ 200m. Agony snap is random exposure for 3 seconds at 400m. The relay is ten min however the target can appear at any time with in those ten min. Sometimes with in 10seconds of the last exposure.

The only deliberate fire we do is at 600m. Where you and your partner must get 24 rounds off in 20min 2 sighters.

 

[jepp2]

Can’t seat 20 off the lands Mag length.

Can you "window" your mag?

 

[Canuckenstein]

Can you "window" your mag?

Explain please? Below is a pic of 5rounds lapua 154gr loaded to mag length. Don’t think I have to.

But please tell me more?

Going this Sunday to test charge weights before I play with seating. I have it to Mag length where it will feed flawlessly. Berger says move back from there till you find the node.

 

[jepp2]

But please tell me more?

I mostly shoot AR's. Depending on which magazine you pick, the max COAL that will fit is limited to 2.260". For the longer heavier bullets, this means you have a lot of case volume occupied by the bullet reducing powder capacity. Of course you probably already knew this.

To gain powder capacity AND to allow me to seat closer to the lands, I just cut out a portion of the front of the magazine. I can now load longer than 2.370", so I gained more than 0.100" in length. Could go slightly more.

I apologize for the appearance. I didn't know for sure if it would work when I modified. I could have done a better looking job. I only needed to load 5, so I just made the cut low enough for those. I also picked a magazine that would maintain the maximum strength, and stayed above where the seam was staked.

 

[rfwind]

43.5 gr IMR 4064 with a 168 SMK will shoot into 1 MOA at 600 yards in my Winchester M70. The rifle has a short throat so my OAL is 2.810 and I use a long drop tube to reduce the powder compression. 4064 is a very useful powder in many cartridges.

 

[Canuckenstein]

43.5 gr IMR 4064 with a 168 SMK will shoot into 1 MOA at 600 yards in my Winchester M70. The rifle has a short throat so my OAL is 2.810 and I use a long drop tube to reduce the powder compression. 4064 is a very useful powder in many cartridges.

Chamber is 2011 Palma it won’t chamber 168GMM without a heavy bolt close. Did this by accident, when I open the bolt it pulled the bullet no buen.

 

[Canuckenstein]

I mostly shoot AR's. Depending on which magazine you pick, the max COAL that will fit is limited to 2.260". For the longer heavier bullets, this means you have a lot of case volume occupied by the bullet reducing powder capacity. Of course you probably already knew this.

To gain powder capacity AND to allow me to seat closer to the lands, I just cut out a portion of the front of the magazine. I can now load longer than 2.370", so I gained more than 0.100" in length. Could go slightly more.

I apologize for the appearance. I didn't know for sure if it would work when I modified. I could have done a better looking job. I only needed to load 5, so I just made the cut low enough for those. I also picked a magazine that would maintain the maximum strength, and stayed above where the seam was staked.

View attachment 1360759

AICS mag with binder plate allows 2.870 I am .025 less than for reliable feeding. Looks like the idea would work. Might have to try it out if I ever get a AR-10.

 

[jepp2]

Might have to try it out if I ever get a AR-10.

I can load to 2.833" for my 6 CM LR308. So far I haven't windowed any magazines for it.

 

[D-4297]

I fully intend on doing load development just wanted to hear that I’m not being handicapped by using IMR4064. I know both (Varget and 4064) are compressed and at around 47grs. It’s also temp sensitive (4064).Others experience with it. Once the rife is completed I will post some results.

All due respect , Guys . Seriously mean that . Can we please stop with the "TEMP SENSITIVE RAP" on 4064 ? I shoot Both the Accurate , and IMR 4064 year round at Ben Avery , where the Temps range from 20F to 120F and the most I have to change my loads is between two and four tenths , and maintain my nodes . The older 4064 from five or six years back had Temp issues , but I don't see any with the current formulas . Just my opinion , from thousands of rounds shot with this powder in top to bottom Temps .

 

[Canuckenstein]

All due respect , Guys . Seriously mean that . Can we please stop with the "TEMP SENSITIVE RAP" on 4064 ? I shoot Both the Accurate , and IMR 4064 year round at Ben Avery , where the Temps range from 20F to 120F and the most I have to change my loads is between two and four tenths , and maintain my nodes . The older 4064 from five or six years back had Temp issues , but I don't see any with the current formulas . Just my opinion , from thousands of rounds shot with this powder in top to bottom Temps .

Urban legend perhaps? Perpetuated by the echo chamber that is the internet.

 

[Michael C]

Can’t seat 20 off the lands Mag length. NSCC matches have relays where two shots are to be placed in under eight seconds @ 200m. Agony snap is random exposure for 3 seconds at 400m. The relay is ten min however the target can appear at any time with in those ten min. Sometimes with in 10seconds of the last exposure.

The only deliberate fire we do is at 600m. Where you and your partner must get 24 rounds off in 20min 2 sighters.

I didn’t see that you required mag length. Choosing that chamber and bullet for mag length ammo is odd. For competition @600m and in the 168/175 smk is hard to beat. But, I have loaded my 155.5 Palma ammo that was seated 30k off in a 2011 fullbore chamber in a M14 magazine without issue. I didn’t fire it in that rifle because it had 47g of Varget and I think it’s a bad idea in an M1A/M14.
Again that bullet is jump tolerant. I still suggest you go for speed using a chronograph and with 4064 you’ll run out of room before you hit max speed. I’d start at 44g and go up.
I shoot 42-44g with 169/175 smk in my M1A at 600 yard competition.

 

[Canuckenstein]

I didn’t see that you required mag length. Choosing that chamber and bullet for mag length ammo is odd. For competition @600m and in the 168/175 smk is hard to beat. But, I have loaded my 155.5 Palma ammo that was seated 30k off in a 2011 fullbore chamber in a M14 magazine without issue. I didn’t fire it in that rifle because it had 47g of Varget and I think it’s a bad idea in an M1A/M14.
Again that bullet is jump tolerant. I still suggest you go for speed using a chronograph and with 4064 you’ll run out of room before you hit max speed. I’d start at 44g and go up.
I shoot 42-44g with 169/175 smk in my M1A at 600 yard competition.

47.8 is my max charge of varget. IIRC my max with 4064 is 46.9 and yes. It’s almost to the mouth. Will post pics of the test this weekend. Hoping to hit the range early on Sunday.

 

[Canuckenstein]

Varget targets at 46.6,46.9,47.3,47.6 and 47.8.
The 47.3 target doubled as a 4064 sighter target. Notice the elevation climb. 4064 pics are coming. Any one care to interpret those targets for the OCW?

 

[Canuckenstein]

4064 OCW at 46.3,46.6,46,9,47.3 and 47.6

Feel free to interpret the targets. I’m thinking 46.6-46.9 of 4064 or 47.6-47.8 of Varget.

Whadda yah think?

Still gotta play with seating depth.

 

[Ray123]

Okay so I just bought 3500 same lot Berger 155.5 Fullbore a have 24lbs same lot of 4064, gonna be hand loading for .308. It’s a 700 blueprinted action with a 30” ibi barrel 1-11.25 twist using a 2011 Fullbore chamber. Brass is all Norma, primers (5000) S&B LR. Anybody have any data on these or use (have experience) this powder bullet combo?I know most of you will say use Varget. Hmmmm, I bet I would have a easier time finding the arc of the covenant than finding Varget.

Years ago I fired 17,000 rds of 308 match hand loads with all Varget and 155 Lapua bullets and brass, my last barrel was a 27" Schilen match 12 twist barrel. They were accurate at 2975- 2980 fps area single digit S/D. Best 5 shot group at 1400 yards was 7.560". The maximum distance I took them, lots of 3 shot groups in 3 to four inch range. Thousand yard 3 shot groups down to 1.5" hitting varmint and eggs at that range. IMR 4064 was never close to consistent accuracy in my 308s and I tried all the recommend accuracy loads for it before giving up on 4064. Surprised Winchester 748 out shot 4064 badly with several bullets, when both were shot on the same day in my rifle barrel..but 4064 did well in the 6 Dasher, but not quite as good as RL 15, Varget...but it was fast and accurate for the few loads I tried...faster than The Varget load...accurate enough to require more testing, in the 6 Dasher.

 

[Canuckenstein]

Years ago I fired 17,000 rds of 308 match hand loads with all Varget and 155 Lapua bullets and brass, my last barrel was a 27" Schilen match 12 twist barrel. They were accurate at 2975- 2980 fps area single digit S/D. Best 5 shot group at 1400 yards was 7.560". The maximum distance I took them, lots of 3 shot groups in 3 to four inch range. Thousand yard 3 shot groups down to 1.5" hitting varmint and eggs at that range. IMR 4064 was never close to consistent accuracy in my 308s and I tried all the recommend accuracy loads for it before giving up on 4064. Surprised Winchester 748 out shot 4064 badly with several bullets, when both were shot on the same day in my rifle barrel..but 4064 did well in the 6 Dasher, but not quite as good as RL 15, Varget...but it was fast and accurate for the few loads I tried...faster than The Varget load...accurate enough to require more testing, in the 6 Dasher.

Looks like the IBI barrel likes the 4064 to me.

 

[cmysix]

Berger say's IMR 4064 40.0 start 2523 max 44.5 2800 103% fill 1-13 twist or faster.

 

[Ray123]

Looks like the IBI barrel likes the 4064 to me.

Many times it's not the powder but the bullet that the barrel likes. Plus Sierra used to have IMR 4064 as their accuracy powder on the bottom of the pages of many of their bullets for 308 in the old manuals...but I tried it several times, and found it lacking in several 308s I own. I have a non match flat base bullet that shoots good with every 308 I own even ARs with LC brass 5 shots under a half inch two groups in .3 and .4 ...wonder what these bullets would do with 4064,..I have a little left ...good luck with your project and if it's "the bullet" for your barrel it will shoot with a number of powders...and it must live up to your expectations not mine.

 

[Canuckenstein]

Many times it's not the powder but the bullet that the barrel likes. Plus Sierra used to have IMR 4064 as their accuracy powder on the bottom of the pages of many of their bullets for 308 in the old manuals...but I tried it several times, and found it lacking in several 308s I own. I have a non match flat base bullet that shoots good with every 308 I own even ARs with LC brass 5 shots under a half inch two groups in .3 and .4 ...wonder what these bullets would do with 4064,..I have a little left ...good luck with your project and if it's "the bullet" for your barrel it will shoot with a number of powders...and it must live up to your expectations not mine.

The chamber is a 2011 Palma chamber. So 155.5 or less. I used 168 SMKs and made a bunch of far more accurate 168GMM clones. Necks skimmed, flash hole deburred, trimmed to identical lengths and case volumes measured to be .02gr identical.
Federal brass is a plenty for the taking after a m14 match.

They shot amazingly out of the last barrel, was SAAMI spec Rem factory. I could print easily .5 or less at 100m all day with this load. It out shot my friends RPR in .308 with the same rounds. It was one of the m700 tactical 20” in the hogue stock. It drove him insane because his rifle and scope combo was twice what mine was. That rifle taught me a lot about how to get accurate reloads, through precise brass prep, Bryan Litz books, some good loading equipment (forster,21st century ect ect) and measurements (record everything!!!).
I learned what worked and what didn’t.

I also owe a lot to the book precision hand loads a old spiral bound job. Not to mention the fine ladies and gentlemen of this site.