Hello, my friend loaded 150gr Soft Points from a 303 British cartridge into a unfired 7.62 x 54r case. He used the powder from the 7.62 case but used a level 3.1 dipper as the load. I wanted to try these out for the deer hunting season. I've never reloaded before so I wouldn't know much about it. Does this sound like a safe load? He used a Lee Loader I think. Thanks.
150gr SP in 7.62 x 54r case load
- Thread starter Howa1500
- Start date
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
I used to load that way as a kid, but that was only after lots of training by the old timers.
If you know what you are doing, then fine.
But, if you don‘t know what you are doing you can find yourself in unsafe territory too easily.
Some recipes are more forgiving than others, but some are too easy to find yourself in overpressure.
You mention the dipper and the bullet, but not the powder type which is critical to safety.
If you know what you are doing, then fine.
But, if you don‘t know what you are doing you can find yourself in unsafe territory too easily.
Some recipes are more forgiving than others, but some are too easy to find yourself in overpressure.
You mention the dipper and the bullet, but not the powder type which is critical to safety.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
I would just say a little more to try and be helpful rather than a downer.
Dissecting factory ammo and replacing the same powder based on “normalizing” the charges from say 10 to 15 samples, reduces the risks from dispersion in the factory ammo, but since we don’t have a clue what that powder is we also don’t know how close we are to a pressure problem by changing those bullets.
For the amount of work it takes, at some point it is better to reassemble with a known powder. Granted, your friend is just using a powder scoop, but then he must take responsibility for the safety margin.
Things may work out just fine, but then you give up rights to ask about things like pressure or margin of safety. Stuff like this is best left to very experienced folks rather than tinkerers. Can it be done is a different question than should you be doing it…. YMMV
ETA: I would recommend you search for a mentor at you local shooting range. Right now it is hard to find supplies, but I just looked and Varget is still on the shelf of many outlets. Try about 48 to 48.5 grains of Varget under a 150 grain bullet for a medium load in that caliber. It will be more expensive for sure, but it will also be a lot safer and nine times out of ten it will shoot tighter.
Dissecting factory ammo and replacing the same powder based on “normalizing” the charges from say 10 to 15 samples, reduces the risks from dispersion in the factory ammo, but since we don’t have a clue what that powder is we also don’t know how close we are to a pressure problem by changing those bullets.
For the amount of work it takes, at some point it is better to reassemble with a known powder. Granted, your friend is just using a powder scoop, but then he must take responsibility for the safety margin.
Things may work out just fine, but then you give up rights to ask about things like pressure or margin of safety. Stuff like this is best left to very experienced folks rather than tinkerers. Can it be done is a different question than should you be doing it…. YMMV
ETA: I would recommend you search for a mentor at you local shooting range. Right now it is hard to find supplies, but I just looked and Varget is still on the shelf of many outlets. Try about 48 to 48.5 grains of Varget under a 150 grain bullet for a medium load in that caliber. It will be more expensive for sure, but it will also be a lot safer and nine times out of ten it will shoot tighter.
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well in our country it is not possible to buy powder, primers or loose bullets. So this is all he had, a 303 British round with 150gr SP and a 7.62 x 54r 180gr FMJ round. 7.62 x 54r Soft Point rounds are pretty much impossible to get here and they cannot be imported by citizens. So The only option was swapping the 303 Soft Point onto the 7.62 x 54r case. No powder is available.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Sorry, forgot to check your avatar to see where you were from. My apologies for being in a rush and a little distracted when posting.
In places where things are like your situation, you can sacrifice several powder charges to run a controlled charge work up in the blind. It takes a little background to recognize signs of pressure but the reward can often be better performance than just assuming the factory charge level for the 180 is the same as the one for a 150.
For example, the with Varget, there is roughly a 4 grain difference, but you would increase the charge for a 150 compared to a 180.
This kind of work is best done while loading at the range.
If you try a straight swap of the same charge from the factory amount used in the 180 gr but using a 150 gr, you will probably find yourself a little slow, but you will likely not blow anything up. Just be aware that you take on the responsibility for loading and accept more risks when loading unknown powders and making changes. Wear your eye protection and proceed with caution.
Good Luck and in for the range report.
In places where things are like your situation, you can sacrifice several powder charges to run a controlled charge work up in the blind. It takes a little background to recognize signs of pressure but the reward can often be better performance than just assuming the factory charge level for the 180 is the same as the one for a 150.
For example, the with Varget, there is roughly a 4 grain difference, but you would increase the charge for a 150 compared to a 180.
This kind of work is best done while loading at the range.
If you try a straight swap of the same charge from the factory amount used in the 180 gr but using a 150 gr, you will probably find yourself a little slow, but you will likely not blow anything up. Just be aware that you take on the responsibility for loading and accept more risks when loading unknown powders and making changes. Wear your eye protection and proceed with caution.
Good Luck and in for the range report.
No problem, In fact he said that the load from the 7.62 x 54r case was more than the 3.1 dipper could take so he just levelled it off and threw put it in. So it's even less than the 180 grain load.
The rounds wont be shot more than 100 yards as they will only be used to hunt in the forest for Fallow Bucks.
The rounds wont be shot more than 100 yards as they will only be used to hunt in the forest for Fallow Bucks.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok, one last comment for the sake of keeping an eye out for trouble in the future.
Going into high pressure is easier to understand for folks with no technical background in ballistics. It is then easy to make a mistake taking some powders too low.
Some powders also show bad behavior when you try to go too low. There can be a double pressure spike that does introduce risk with some combinations, so do not assume unknown powders are safe to download to the level where they are dangerous.
The powders like H4895 are famous both for being good, but also due to being safer for downloading. But, other powders can be downright dangerous.
ETA: if your friend can put those rounds past a chronograph, see if they are near the traditional speed range for the caliber. If for example they are significantly slower, be careful.
Going into high pressure is easier to understand for folks with no technical background in ballistics. It is then easy to make a mistake taking some powders too low.
Some powders also show bad behavior when you try to go too low. There can be a double pressure spike that does introduce risk with some combinations, so do not assume unknown powders are safe to download to the level where they are dangerous.
The powders like H4895 are famous both for being good, but also due to being safer for downloading. But, other powders can be downright dangerous.
ETA: if your friend can put those rounds past a chronograph, see if they are near the traditional speed range for the caliber. If for example they are significantly slower, be careful.
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bfiles
Gold $$ Contributor
A look at the Lee dipper chart shows the charge of 3.1cc, using most of the likely powders, is right around 42 grains. The Hornady manual lists 150 grain-class bullet charges for 7.62 Russian of anywhere from 36 to 46 grains for typical powders. With all that said, 42 grains is right in the middle of most of the powder charge ranges.
Loosely speaking, your suggested load is probably ok. Probably.
Loosely speaking, your suggested load is probably ok. Probably.
I will say that I have had very good accuracy using 150 gr. soft point 0.312" bullets in my M-44.
Based upon past hunting experience, it should be adequate for most deer/medium sized game.
I have also taken apart factory loads to balance the charges reusing the bullets and powder. Variances in some ammunition has been as much as 20% of the charge. Once balanced, the groups improve dramatically.
Bulgarian 7.62x54R has been the worst, thus far.
Based upon past hunting experience, it should be adequate for most deer/medium sized game.
I have also taken apart factory loads to balance the charges reusing the bullets and powder. Variances in some ammunition has been as much as 20% of the charge. Once balanced, the groups improve dramatically.
Bulgarian 7.62x54R has been the worst, thus far.
D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
As a card-carrying member of the M-N Nut-Job Association ; I read this with a smile . I have three M-N's and have been "playing" with ammo for them for over a Decade . Expert ? Hell No , but knowledgeable about them . Particularly the Brass . You mentioned S&B , so I will assume you are using the S&B Brass from the 180gr. factory loads . A reasonable choice as they are decent quality , and consistent from the manufacturer .
As several have said ; the powder load should be "workable", but on the slow side . A note of caution here . After firing your first "TEST" shot , and for the first three , run a rod down the barrel , for safety sake , just to be sure everything is clear . Mosin barrels are inherently inconsistent in diameters . Some being shot a lot through their life , and some , like one I have that was a "Parade Rifle" were never shot at all , and very tight .
If you have the opportunity to test with a chronograph ; you should try to get your velocity into the range of 2640 fps up to 2720 fps Tops . That may seem high to some readers here , but it is the range these rifles shoot for best accuracy with a 148gr to 152gr bullet . The Russians were shooting them as fast as 2,800 fps in the "High Node" , but my own testing and range time suggest the higher velocities isn't necessary . Especially when the OP says he will be in the 100 - 150 yard range .
As several have said ; the powder load should be "workable", but on the slow side . A note of caution here . After firing your first "TEST" shot , and for the first three , run a rod down the barrel , for safety sake , just to be sure everything is clear . Mosin barrels are inherently inconsistent in diameters . Some being shot a lot through their life , and some , like one I have that was a "Parade Rifle" were never shot at all , and very tight .
If you have the opportunity to test with a chronograph ; you should try to get your velocity into the range of 2640 fps up to 2720 fps Tops . That may seem high to some readers here , but it is the range these rifles shoot for best accuracy with a 148gr to 152gr bullet . The Russians were shooting them as fast as 2,800 fps in the "High Node" , but my own testing and range time suggest the higher velocities isn't necessary . Especially when the OP says he will be in the 100 - 150 yard range .
UPDATE!
Okay so my friend bought a Lee Loader, Hornady Powder measuring scales, a dial Vernier callipers, a bullet puller and a few other bits. His wife didn't find out how much all this cost though
Jokes aside I managed to get Sierra Pro Hunter 180 Grain Soft Point bullets. I have Sellier and Bellot 180 grain FMJ's full rounds. My plan is a simple one. Primers and powder are not available to buy here so I have devised this master plan. Simply remove the FMJ and replace it with the Soft point.
The FMJ case has primer, 45.8grains of powder, brass and I'll just need to seat the new soft point. Does anyone see anything going wrong with this?
Okay so my friend bought a Lee Loader, Hornady Powder measuring scales, a dial Vernier callipers, a bullet puller and a few other bits. His wife didn't find out how much all this cost though
Jokes aside I managed to get Sierra Pro Hunter 180 Grain Soft Point bullets. I have Sellier and Bellot 180 grain FMJ's full rounds. My plan is a simple one. Primers and powder are not available to buy here so I have devised this master plan. Simply remove the FMJ and replace it with the Soft point. The FMJ case has primer, 45.8grains of powder, brass and I'll just need to seat the new soft point. Does anyone see anything going wrong with this?
D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
I went and got into my Books on load data for a 7.62 x 54r and they show loads for the Sierra 180 SPT that are well within range of what you want to do , safely . I have loaded 185gr Juggernauts in my .308 Mosin with 53.4gr of A- 4350 , and the 1943 Action has stood up very well in F-class Competition for several years . Do some test firings at the approximate range distance you will be hunting , and check the results . Shouldn't be a problem . You may even decide to increase the load by one half a grain for a slightly higher velocity . Most of the S&B loads are somewhat slow . Under 2,500 fps .
D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
Actually , no they don't . I shot the rifle in the SWN a couple years ago , and ran 80 rounds through it in one day . Three relays of Twenty for "Record" , and sighters . The rifle is set up as a F- Open rifle and weighs 21lbs -6 ounces . The only reason I don't shoot 200 gr or 200.20x is because It has a very new Bartlein 30" MTU profile barrel I want to make last for awhile .
I do have a stock , original Romanian M-N Sniper rifle , chambered in .308 Win and I shoot the 185's in it , and recoil is no worse than the 7N1 Soviet Sniper round .
I do have a stock , original Romanian M-N Sniper rifle , chambered in .308 Win and I shoot the 185's in it , and recoil is no worse than the 7N1 Soviet Sniper round .
Considering the 54r has 63 - 64 gr of H2O capacity and the 303 brit has 56 - 57gr. Your 150 gr load will be very under-powered. Usually we use more powder for lighter bullets. A heavier bullet needs less powder because it's all about the pressures.
Too light of a load can also be unsafe unless it's a proven powder that's good for lighter loads.
Best to know what powder you're using and going by printed load data. The dippers are OK as long as you know the powder and go by Lee's recommendations as to which dipper to use for the cartridge / bullet / powder combination.
Too light of a load can also be unsafe unless it's a proven powder that's good for lighter loads.
Best to know what powder you're using and going by printed load data. The dippers are OK as long as you know the powder and go by Lee's recommendations as to which dipper to use for the cartridge / bullet / powder combination.
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