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.14 Cal Project ?

Marty @ Twisted Barrel:
You know those master engravers that put out those super detailed works of art on guns. Yeah, that's Marty, just not with an engraving tool, he's doing with a reamer, bit, end mill, face mill, etc...
 
Thanks to several members here my .14 cal project is moving forward.
Ordered some new Rem 221 Fireball brass and a 14-221 Eichelberger die set after Mr Marty @ Twisted barrels agreed to take on the Job.
Not a lot of .14 cal info on the net, but there's a wealth of information from members here.
Thanks,
SJC
 
Shoots100, I’m very glad to hear your project is getting rolling. I was somewhat surprised to hear the 14/221 Eichelberger cartridge selection over the 14/221 Walker or the 14-221 Fireball designs. Are you okay sharing why you decide to go that route?

I’m sure you’re already aware but the reloading data for the Eichelberger will be a little different from the 14/221 Walker and 14-221 Fireball with some powders due to the different shoulder angles. (In the small chamber and bores, some powders are much more sensitive to it and respond differently.) It’s not a good thing or a bad thing but just something you should be aware of as you may see different results because of it.

Are you planning on die reducing the 221 Fireball brass or spinning it? Most of the spin plates that I have seen are all set up with the 30 degree shoulder. If you go that route and you are open to advice, I would say you’d want to anneal the cases a second time right before bumping the shoulders back (unless you have a 25 degree shoulder spin plate).

Wish you the very best on your project,

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy
www.14caliber.com
 
It really comes down to choosing the Eichelberger cartridge that the man himself preferred for all-around shooting.
I have scales that read to the tenth of a grain, so I'll work up loads as usual.
I'll be Die reducing.
I'm all set up to anneal and have 200 brand new pieces of .221 FB brass.
Just waiting on the die set and I'll send everything to Mr Marty so he can do his magic.
SJC
 
I always wanted to ask Bill why he decided to go with the 25 degree shoulder on his 14/.221 Eichelberger design rather than sticking with the original 14-221 Walker design. The 14-221 Walker was already a pretty seasoned and proven round for both accuracy and efficiency. The work the Walker brothers did in developing it along with the 14 Walker Hornet, way back in the day, was pretty amazing. The skills of their barrel and die maker, Red Shearer, were pretty remarkable even in today’s age.

The 30 degree shoulder angle had already proven many times to give an edge over the lesser degreed shoulder angles in both performance and reduced barrel wear (6BR, 22 BR, 20 BR. 20 Tactical, 20 Vartarg, 17 mach IV, 14-221 Walker, 14-221 Fireball, 14 Walker Hornet, 14 squirrel, 12 squirrel, and even the 10 caliber squirrel all utilize it, along with a myriad of others). It’s pretty much the sweet spot in efficiency gain without causing enhanced pressure problems in the tiny small bores. The increased shoulder angle helped reduce throat erosion to some extent in the high speed cartridges as well.

If you start going past the 30 degree mark with an even sharper shoulder angle the powder selections start quickly being reduced as pressure problems really start to ramp up in the small confines of the small bores and engine rooms.

Now, feeding into some actions back in the day, might have lent a good push to him to use a gentler shoulder angle. Custom actions and followers back then were not easy to come by. Bill was a pretty sharp guy so he must have had a reason for going that route.

Wish you great success and the very best on your project. It should be a very fun and rewarding adventure.

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com
 
While I was almost set on the FB and/or Walker cartridges, I couldn't help but pay homage to Mr Eichelberger when a reamer became available.
Like anyone who pushes the envelope, I'm guessing Mr Bill wanted to see if less of a shoulder angle made a difference.
Those 5 more degrees added some space for more powder, like an Ackerly Imp cartridge, but it's not really that much of a change to make a noticeable difference.
I have no doubt that this won't be my only .14 caliber rifle.
I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and insight on the small caliber cartridges here.
SJC
 
Shoots100, just for informational purposes on here for yourself and others, the 25 degree shoulder angle actually has slightly less room for powder. (The Ackley Imp. cartridges are normally a 40 degree shoulder.) From my findings the 40 degree shoulder angle is too sharp of a shoulder angle for the tiny confines of the very small bore cartridges. Others might wholeheartedly disagree and have experienced great results with them. I just have never witnessed it or heard of anyone having great success with it in the very small bores. (I am however a big fan of the 40 degree shoulder in my medium and large bore stuff.)

You will have PLENTY of room in your 14-221 Eichelberger for powder so it will not even be an issue to consider. I just wanted you to know that you’ll likely see different results on powder loads in it when comparing notes from the other cartridges of similar designs utilizing the sharper shoulder angle. (I think Eichelberger was probably trying to get around copyrights.) As soon as Remington came out with the 221 Fireball (1963) the Obrien camp quickly “improved” it in 17 caliber (known as the 17 Mach IV) and the Walkers in 14 caliber as the 14-221 Walker design. (Both utilizing the 30 degree shoulder) Both companies had copyrights to those designs which meant you could make them for yourself but if you sold them you had to pay royalties.

When Walker Machine and Tool Company closed their doors in 1976, Bill purchased the last two 14 caliber barrels that Red Shearer made (at least while working for the Walkers). I’d love to know what ever happened to those barrels. (I don’t know if Red continued to make barrels and reamers post his time working for the Walkers. (as a side note his real name was Robert Shearer but went by Red.) He was an exceptional craftsman and trade. His work really helped bring the 14’s to life.

To get back on topic, it appears from the pictures you posted of your Van Horn barrel blank that it is a 6 land grove configuration in a 1 in 9 twist rate from the stampings. (I can’t really see for sure though). If that is the case and you’re interested please let me know if your open to doing some bullet testing post barrel break-in. (I would not advise running heavy’s or high speeds in it until after proper barrel break in. The longer bearing surface on the heavy’s and the higher speeds of the really light bullets can throw off the bore seasoning step. That step is critical in your success with the tiny bores and should be completed carefully.)

I tried to do a little research on the Van Horn 14 caliber barrels on their website. It had listed barrel break in information for their larger bore barrels but not the 14 caliber barrels. (At least that I could find). I will say I personally complete a very different barrel break in method for my 14 caliber barrels from what they have listed on their website for the larger calibers. You might want to see if they have other methods for their 14 caliber barrels as well.

Having said that my 14 caliber barrel break in experience and methods are overwhelmingly weighted to the stainless barrels. Of the twenty one 14 caliber barrels I’ve owned the vast majority are stainless. (I’ve only had 3 Chrom moly barrels.) I predominantly used the same method for breaking them in as I did for my stainless barrels except I used Ws2 in them instead of Moly. (You might find others on here that have vast more experience with 14 caliber Chro Moly barrels to help assist you). You might also look into HBN. (I found no gain in it in my stainless barrels but it might have good results in the Chrom Moly barrels.)

There have been several other site members that have asked for barrel break in and cleaning advice and I don’t want to hi-jack your thread on that topic. (Especially since I have never utilized a Van Horn barrel which is being utilized on your project.) I will try to start a new thread in its regard for others that would like to share what methods they use as well. I think it would be a great tool for yourself and others since the Saubier site is no longer functioning. I’ve seen way too many times people purchase a good 14 caliber rifle “give it a good cleaning” and then they cannot get it to shoot right again. What they really did is unseason (and usually foul) a good barrel. Getting it straightened back out is not an easy task.

Please keep us posted as your project keeps progressing. It should be a very fun, exciting and rewarding adventure.

Carl C.

Extreme Accuracy

www.14caliber.com
 
It's funny that I was able to find a page on .14 cal's that has both of the cartridge case specs we're discussing to compare.
Looking at the comparison of the two cartridge dimensions, it looks like the 25 degree shoulder of the Eich would lend itself to having a little more case capacity.
Eich / Walker
I'm game for projo testing and I appreciate any tips from the experts on how to break in a .14 cal barrel, suggested starting loads, recommended powder I should stock up on and whatever else you don't mind sharing.
I have a moly set up, so I'll stick with that for now.

SJC
 

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