109 Hybrid, Juice not worth the squeeze?

[eddief]

The 6mm Berger105 Hybrid is the most consistent bullet across lots that I have seen. If I couldn't get them, I would shoot the 107SMK. YMMV

 

[Jeff Porter]

Ran a larger sample of 109’s with 31.0 N150. Had a few with heavy bolt lid and some shiny ejector spots so going to back down the load and try again. They do group well in my Bartlein barrel.

 

[LVLAaron]

The 109 I have found can be a bit particular to tune. Once you find the sweet spot for it though it is very hard to beat.

I believe that's the case for all of the Long Range Hybrid Target bullets.

 

[swd]

They have been really easy for me to work with. I’ve had several barrels where I set them .020” off and never had to move them to be very competitive in F Open.

 

[JLT]

I believe that's the case for all of the Long Range Hybrid Target bullets.

The 7mm 184s are not fussy at all, in my experience. The 180s are easier - they don't seem to care where you seat them - but the 184s shoot well with wide seating depth ranges.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I currently have a load for my 6 BRA of 105 Berger Hybrid running at 2900fps using H4895. This is grouping 0.3MOA - 0.5MOA for 5 and 10 shot groups.

Always looking for an advantage, I noted the higher BC’s of the 109 Hybrid. I ordered 100 to play with and see what I can do with those. Using H4895, I can get them up to 2900fps but starting to see ejector shiny spot and edges of primers flattening out. 2850 did not show the pressure signs. The 8 shots I took with powder charges from 28.5-29.8gr all piled into similar POI in a 0.7moa group.
View attachment 1636879
Long term, looking at the Berger calculator….and JBM and Hornady 4 DOF, I am not seeing the benefit over my current load. I am a sling shooter from 600-1000 yard known distance paper targets. Flatter elevation is always nice but not as critical in my known distance games. The wind difference is insignificant between the 105 at 2900 and the 109 at 2850.

The 105 Hybrid 2900fps 600 yard wind deflection on my home range is 0.37 moa/ mph per the Berger calculator. The 1000 yard deflection is 0.72 moa/mph.

The 109 Hybrid 2850fps 600 yard wind deflection on my home range is 0.36 moa/ mph per the Berger calculator. The 1000 yard deflection is 0.68 moa/mph.

The scoring rings on the sling targets are ½ MOA per scoring ring in the middle of the target. This means in order to have the 0.04 moa/ mph advantage of the 109 bullet “save me a point” I would have to miss the wind call by about 10-12 mph.

The added extra cost of the 109 over the 105 can’t be justified by this difference.



BUT- I also tried a series of N150 (yeah, a lot slower I know). I never got to 2800fps and had very rounded primers, so way under max pressure. BUT- these 8 shots all went into a 0.7 MOA horizontal row with the same elevation.


View attachment 1636880


There is room in the case to go up to 31grains so I may try to get the 109’s up to 2850+ and see if that pattern holds, as well as test the 105’s with N150 and see how that vertical is. Cutting vertical in half is worth looking into with N150 and other slower powders.

Just asking from my experience in Short Range.

Won’t that horizontal tune be tough to deal with out at 600 yards?

 

[Ruger15151]

Just asking from my experience in Short Range.

Won’t that horizontal tune be tough to deal with out at 600 yards?

Yes... way worse than vertical is a wide weather report. However, different neck tension might clean that up.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Yes... way worse than vertical is a wide weather report. However, different neck tension might clean that up.

Seating depth too. Or, ( god forbid), a Tuner.

 

[Rtheurer]

Just to jump in here, I am using the 109 Hybrid in a 6mm Needmore for 1000yds. ( 3100fps) I was like a couple guys here very happy at the .020 to .030 off the lands. Then one day while talking to TWO fellas i 100% trust in giving advice, Told me that they found the 109 to shoot better at .060 off.
A quick seating depth test at 600 yards and sure as heck, .060 to .075 was a much better sweet spot reducing the groups size significantly than the .020 off i was happy with before.
Might want to do a quick test.

 

[Bill Norris]

Seating depth too. Or, ( god forbid), a Tuner.

Right Jackie. LOL.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Good discussions and thanks for the input. I have just been playing with these as the 105 load is in a good spot. I will try some at 0.060" off. I have had rifles that shot best with 0.090" jump so I am not opposed to pushing it in the case.

30.7 gr N150 quick test shows 2835 fps with 5 shot SD of 1.8 and ES of 5. I load up some of those at 0.060" off and compare to the 0.020" off I have been using. If they give me a five shot group at 100 equal to or better than the 105's I will load up 25 for a string in a 600 yard match this weekend.

 

[SSchnd]

Sorry Guys, we do not have the luxury of using tuners or brakes in the sling game. We must tune the load and rifle.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Just asking from my experience in Short Range.

Won’t that horizontal tune be tough to deal with out at 600 yards?

Those images were of a range of powder charges. I need to shoot some larger sample size groups of the same charge and seating depth. I don expect it to walk across the paper with the same charge.

 

[Liven The Dream]

109's in my Dasher at a Palma Format Match F/Open. All I could get with Varget was AV 2833 .
I was happy with out mostly at 1000 yards. Looking at overall score of the Big Gun's ?
The little Guy did OK.
Will try 105's down the road.

 

[Billy 30-06]

I like them in my 6gt. Weren't that hard to tune. They really hold the water line @ 1k yds and like to jump. Ended up @ .080" jump.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Latest follow up. I have been shooting the 109 Hybrids with N150 at 2840 for long range and the 105’s for mid range. As another Wrinkle, I had a small batch of 110 Atip. Found these to like 31.0 of Varget at 2900 fps. All will group 3-5 shots into 0.3-0.5 moa from the bench and will clean the target with me being the weak link from the sling.

So - today I had a chance to shoot all three loads from a sling at 500 yards in the same condition. Interesting but expected results.

105’s at 2893 SD 7.7 with H4895, xRing sized group ( 1 moa ) with 2065 fps at the target. 8 shot group.

109’s at 2830 with N150. SD 2.3 sighters well out but dropped 5 X in under 1/2 moa. 2069 at the target.

110 Atip. Have not done a full jump test with this one but it shot 0.4 moa with 0.020”off ( and the bullets cost too much to spend a lot of time playing with them ) Varget load 2901 fps 7.4 SD 2” tall 5” wide 8 shot group. Velo at target …2135.

I like the added retained velocity of the 109/110 particularly for long range. The N150 just give outstanding performance with consistent velocity.

I think the answer is I am the weak link in any of these loads, points lost are mine and not the load or equipment.

 

[Fire Dog]

For me, so far it’s the best consistent performer. I’ve tried 105 hyb, 108 bt, 112 Barnes.

109 is the easy button in a 28 in comp contour Bartlein 1/8 tw. N150 or Varget are pretty much interchangeable

I have club member using 110 Sierras in his 6GT with great success ..

 

[Rat Rifle]

Latest follow up. I have been shooting the 109 Hybrids with N150 at 2840 for long range and the 105’s for mid range. As another Wrinkle, I had a small batch of 110 Atip. Found these to like 31.0 of Varget at 2900 fps. All will group 3-5 shots into 0.3-0.5 moa from the bench and will clean the target with me being the weak link from the sling.

So - today I had a chance to shoot all three loads at 500 yards in the same condition. Interesting but expected results.

105’s at 2893 SD 7.7 with H4895, xRing sized group ( 1 moa ) with 2065 fps at the target. 8 shot group.

109’s at 2830 with N150. SD 2.3 sighters well out but dropped 5 X in under 1/2 moa. 2069 at the target.

110 Atip. Have not done a full jump test with this one but it shot 0.4 moa with 0.020”off ( and the bullets cost too much to spend a lot of time playing with them ) Varget load 2901 fps 7.4 SD 2” tall 5” wide 8 shot group. Velo at target …2135.

I like the added retained velocity of the 109/110 particularly for long range. The N150 just give outstanding performance with consistent velocity.

I think the answer is I am the weak link in any of these loads, points lost are mine and not the load or equipment.

If You don’t mind, what was the successful seating depth on the 105’s & 109’s.

 

[Jeff Porter]

If You don’t mind, what was the successful seating depth on the 105’s & 109’s.

0.020” off for both. I think it is more the seating depth with the boat tail just at the neck shoulder junction. It has been consistent across several Berger bullets in this chamber.

Photo of 109 seating test.

 

[Tikka6CM]

If You don’t mind, what was the successful seating depth on the 105’s & 109’s.

I’m my testing with both bullets, seating depth doesn’t matter from 0.020-.120 off.

Hybrids just shoot and aren’t sensitive to seating depth.