I was wandering what your pet 1000 yrd loads would read, if you chronographed a 3 shot string ? I shoot a 300 rem ultra with a 1/10 heavy contour 26' broughton barrel defensive edge recoil lug I know it's not a common competition rig however, I would like to take the same approach as you guys do in finding the best long range load for my rifle. Thanks for any help...
1000yrd E.S. S.D. ?????????
- Thread starter 300ulta210
- Start date
Thanks MarkS, That gives me a goal to reach for.What's your S.D.
Not to steal the thread,but I was wondering what everybody did to reduce thier ES? I heard higher pressures help and case prep.
Do you guys shoot long range? 600 TO 1000 YRDS. I'm not trying to be rude, I would feel real good at just looking at the E.S. only, if you guys are shooting at extended range and going by the e.s. alone for your load data. Verminator2 ask away you don't have to worry about this thread
The only reason I'm watching both is because of what shawn carlock's load data says. He's shooting rocks out to 1500 yrds 12' disks out to 1200 with a 338 edge. I will say this it's taking me some time to find the numbers I'm looking for on the chronograph. Is it just me or does it take everyone else some time to find a pet load ?
The only reason I'm watching both is because of what shawn carlock's load data says. He's shooting rocks out to 1500 yrds 12' disks out to 1200 with a 338 edge. I will say this it's taking me some time to find the numbers I'm looking for on the chronograph. Is it just me or does it take everyone else some time to find a pet load ?Yes, at least three of of your responses have come from shooters who have set records and won championships at 1000 yards.
The ES vs. SD issue will remain a somewhat heated topic. The shooters who focus more on ES also have great SD. The 'problem' as the 'ES' shooters will state is that SD can hide a round that would take you out of the group at 1000 yards.
A crude example: If you are in a class of 20 students and 19 of them have an 'A' average in the course, but one has a 'C' average, you don't want the 'C' student making a presentation on behalf of the other 19. That is the essence of why 'ES' shooters don't focus on 'SD'.
When I shot 1000 yd BR where the number of record rounds were very low compared to long range prone, I would sort every case by its ability to not only stay in the low 'ES' group but I also sorted as to the individual case performance on the target at 1000. You guarded those cases like gold.
For low ES,and SD), work on testing your neck tension and primers. Certain powders also tend to give you better numbers with a certain primer. Sometimes increasing the neck tension also brings down the ES, especially in long barrels with slow burning powders. Faster burning powders are usually a little easier to tune. Another very important point -- you are not likely to get consistent single digit ES if your powder charges are not exact. I program my charges into an RCBS Chargemaster and do the final check on an Acculab VIC 123 digital scale -- to .02 grains,one kernel of powder). Also, some chamberings are just more efficient and easier to tune to a very competitive level, i.e., any of the chamberings based on the 6BR Norma case.
Good luck,
Jim Hardy
The ES vs. SD issue will remain a somewhat heated topic. The shooters who focus more on ES also have great SD. The 'problem' as the 'ES' shooters will state is that SD can hide a round that would take you out of the group at 1000 yards.
A crude example: If you are in a class of 20 students and 19 of them have an 'A' average in the course, but one has a 'C' average, you don't want the 'C' student making a presentation on behalf of the other 19. That is the essence of why 'ES' shooters don't focus on 'SD'.
When I shot 1000 yd BR where the number of record rounds were very low compared to long range prone, I would sort every case by its ability to not only stay in the low 'ES' group but I also sorted as to the individual case performance on the target at 1000. You guarded those cases like gold.
For low ES,and SD), work on testing your neck tension and primers. Certain powders also tend to give you better numbers with a certain primer. Sometimes increasing the neck tension also brings down the ES, especially in long barrels with slow burning powders. Faster burning powders are usually a little easier to tune. Another very important point -- you are not likely to get consistent single digit ES if your powder charges are not exact. I program my charges into an RCBS Chargemaster and do the final check on an Acculab VIC 123 digital scale -- to .02 grains,one kernel of powder). Also, some chamberings are just more efficient and easier to tune to a very competitive level, i.e., any of the chamberings based on the 6BR Norma case.
Good luck,
Jim Hardy
3 responses come from shooters who have set records and won championships! AWESOME. Thanks guys for your replies .I use a rcbs beam scale call me old fashioned and I always trickle every load . As for the neck tention I don't know how to adj. for that, what tool do you use for that?
and I always trickle every load . As for the neck tention I don't know how to adj. for that, what tool do you use for that?MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
300ulta210,
THe best way to adjust neck tension is a bushing die, F/S or neck only. I like Redding 'S' F/L if I am buying new. . Also you can have Hornaday make a custom die made to fit you neck, without a bushing. I also have Wilson hand die for neck sizing and seating.
Just buy the bushing to fit your chamber. My 6BRX is a 0.271' neck. when fired it comes out of the chamber at 0.270'. A loaded round is around 0.269'. I use a 0.267' bushing. That give me 0.002' grip on the bullet.
With these die you don't use a expamder ball at all.
I just checked a 204 Ruger regluar die. It takes the neck down 0.020' down then the expalnder ball pulls it back out for about 0.005' grip. That work the brass a lot, and that is why i am seeing a lot of neck cracks. I just ordered a Redding S die.
When shooting long range benchrest, it takes everything you can do to make things better. I think match are win at the loading bench, as much as the shooting bench.
I to use a RCBS beam scale to get every load the same for a match, but for long range hunting, I don't take so many pains with my loads.
Mark Schronce
THe best way to adjust neck tension is a bushing die, F/S or neck only. I like Redding 'S' F/L if I am buying new. . Also you can have Hornaday make a custom die made to fit you neck, without a bushing. I also have Wilson hand die for neck sizing and seating.
Just buy the bushing to fit your chamber. My 6BRX is a 0.271' neck. when fired it comes out of the chamber at 0.270'. A loaded round is around 0.269'. I use a 0.267' bushing. That give me 0.002' grip on the bullet.
With these die you don't use a expamder ball at all.
I just checked a 204 Ruger regluar die. It takes the neck down 0.020' down then the expalnder ball pulls it back out for about 0.005' grip. That work the brass a lot, and that is why i am seeing a lot of neck cracks. I just ordered a Redding S die.
When shooting long range benchrest, it takes everything you can do to make things better. I think match are win at the loading bench, as much as the shooting bench.
I to use a RCBS beam scale to get every load the same for a match, but for long range hunting, I don't take so many pains with my loads.
Mark Schronce
MarkS, I use rcbs dies nothing fancey, I also have a neck sizing die. I'm shooting a remington 300 ultra mag with 210 grain bergers, can you tell me what die to order so I can adj. for neck tension ? I know it's not going to shoot like the 6br's but I want It to shoot as good as possible. Thanks Jeremy
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
JHardy said:
Not necessarily disagreeing per se... but a counter point would be that SD gives you a sense of the consistency of *all* your rounds in a given 'sample' group... which can then be used to predict the consistency of your 'population' i.e. the other similar rounds of the same load fired through your gun. Extreme spread, more correctly termed 'range' only counts two rounds - the high and the low, and gives undue emphasis to the 'outliers' - the 'freak' occurences that are statistically least likely to repeat consistently in the first place.
Reducing the number and magnitude of those 'outlier' data points *is* a very good thing, and thats generally what the 'ES is most important!' crowd is going for. As I said, no argument there. I just disagree that SD is not important - as mentioned, SD from your sample can be used to give you an idea of what to expect as you fire more and more rounds - ES has absolutely no meaning outside the context of the sample group it was collected from.
Think about this... a lot of times you see people brag about single-digit ES... but when you examine the data, you see one of two things: either they had a fairly small sample size,which can give deceptive and unrealistic indications of the overall population), or their SD is somewhere up in the 4-6 range. If you want to get into the 'outlier' mode again, take your SD time 6, and thats what you can *really* expect for a long term ES number if you fired enough rounds,mathematically should contain ~99.7% of the shots fired). 6 times 6... you do the math... its a heck of a lot more than the reported 'single digit' ES.
Like I said, I'm all for reducing the things that cause inconsistency in my loads and result in those 'outliers' you see when measuring 'extreme spread'. But the extreme spread of a sample doesn't really tell you anything about the extreme spread of the population, other than it ain't gonna get any better. Standard deviation of the sample *can* be used as a predictor of what to expect from the remaining population. I don't know about you, but I don't really care about some stat related only to the batch of rounds I just fired through my chronograph at my home range during practice; I care much more about the consistency of the ammo I will be producing for the matches for the rest of the year,the remaining population) - hence, I tend to give 'ES' a cursory look to make sure its 'okay', and then focus on reducing my SD.
YMMV,
Monte
ES is not a significant statistical indicator. Multiples of sigma is a more reliable indicator, e.g. 3sigma or 6 sigma.
Said another way, +/- 3 SD describes your shooting system's,gun, bullet, shooter) capability. If the ES lies within its bounds, externalities are not an influence. If the ES is greater, then some of those shots were subjected to influence,s). ES is a pragmatic analysis. SD invites greater scrutiny.
Is it possible to gather good load info while shooting 3 shot groups over the chronograph? For instance last sat. I ended up with an E.S. of 4.30 and a S.D. of 2.00 keep in mind this was a three shot group. Am I wasting my time with 3 shot strings or should I bump it up to five or just go ahead and shoot 10 shot strings? ANOTHER WORDS If I load 10 rounds would my E.S. be different then or would it still read 4.30?
Monte:
This is the classic ES vs. SD argument. We are both kinda saying the same thing. SD is very important when you are working up a load because that is more of a gross number you have to strive for.
When I start load development, I look at SD. When I refine load development, I look at ES. When I think I have a load dialed in I will shoot four 5 shot groups, two 10 shot groups, or one 20 shot group,usually the four 5 shot groups). If I have any shots on the refined load that are outside of the single digits, I need more work or that brass is tossed. Of course, if you have 20 shots,under any of the above tests) that stay in single digits for each shot, your SD will be very nice.
As you know, in the type of competitive shooting we do,F-Class and Long Range prone), we don't shoot a 20 shot string for record. We shoot 20 individual matches, one shot at at time, within that 20 shot string.
Again, we are pretty much on the same page. We just look at it a little differently.
Thanks for your input on this topic. I do know what you and I both believe in 100% -- you don't want that high or low shot on an X ring break when you cannot assign a condition to it. Dang if you hold off or click or just break another shot on the X because you don't know where that shot came from. I hate that. You know how it goes: you get the unexplained shot and you adjust or not. Then you wait for the target to come back up out of the pits and pray the spotter is centered. We all know that feeling.
Thanks again,
Jim
This is the classic ES vs. SD argument. We are both kinda saying the same thing. SD is very important when you are working up a load because that is more of a gross number you have to strive for.
When I start load development, I look at SD. When I refine load development, I look at ES. When I think I have a load dialed in I will shoot four 5 shot groups, two 10 shot groups, or one 20 shot group,usually the four 5 shot groups). If I have any shots on the refined load that are outside of the single digits, I need more work or that brass is tossed. Of course, if you have 20 shots,under any of the above tests) that stay in single digits for each shot, your SD will be very nice.
As you know, in the type of competitive shooting we do,F-Class and Long Range prone), we don't shoot a 20 shot string for record. We shoot 20 individual matches, one shot at at time, within that 20 shot string.
Again, we are pretty much on the same page. We just look at it a little differently.
Thanks for your input on this topic. I do know what you and I both believe in 100% -- you don't want that high or low shot on an X ring break when you cannot assign a condition to it. Dang if you hold off or click or just break another shot on the X because you don't know where that shot came from. I hate that. You know how it goes: you get the unexplained shot and you adjust or not. Then you wait for the target to come back up out of the pits and pray the spotter is centered. We all know that feeling.
Thanks again,
Jim
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
300ulta210,
I would get a Redding 'S' full length bushing die in Remington 300 ultra mag, then you can full length at the same time. Them measure a loaded round on the neck. start 0.002' less. most like a more than one bushing. You may need a 0.003' and 0.004' samller. something like 0.320, 0.321, 0.322 for example, not sure what it would it would take.
Mark Schronce
I would get a Redding 'S' full length bushing die in Remington 300 ultra mag, then you can full length at the same time. Them measure a loaded round on the neck. start 0.002' less. most like a more than one bushing. You may need a 0.003' and 0.004' samller. something like 0.320, 0.321, 0.322 for example, not sure what it would it would take.
Mark Schronce
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Jim,
The other part of the equation - how far do you trust your chronograph? Obviously you trust yours a lot further than I do mine,at least lately) - which is why I've been putting more emphasis on shooting practice @ distance on targets of known dimensions similar to those I intend to compete on.
I find it somewhat disturbing that it's fairly difficult to get an honest straight answer out of a chronograph vendor about what the actual tested accuracy of their instruments are.
Monte
The other part of the equation - how far do you trust your chronograph? Obviously you trust yours a lot further than I do mine,at least lately) - which is why I've been putting more emphasis on shooting practice @ distance on targets of known dimensions similar to those I intend to compete on.
I find it somewhat disturbing that it's fairly difficult to get an honest straight answer out of a chronograph vendor about what the actual tested accuracy of their instruments are.
Monte
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