Query: Brass concentricity?

[Thor357]

Assuming you have a decent quality FL sizing die, what do you do about brass runout if you encounter that?
Lets assume you don't have the funds to go out and buy a premium FL sizing die, you just have to try and make what you got work.

 

[Homerange]

LCD

 

[PopCharlie]

I don't worry about runout. In my experience, it makes no difference on target. I went down that rabbit hole years ago.

PopCharlie

 

[Mulligan]

O-ring between the die lock ring and press sometimes helps with alignment.
Clean your shell holder well.
Clean your brass prior to sizing. This will actually give you a bit more shoulder bump as well.
Give your die a good cleaning with brake cleaner and then lube with whatever case lube you use.
Use good quality case lube.

I chased this some time back, my rigs like straight ammo.
Figure out which part of the brass is not playing well. If it is the body of the brass (not the neck) that is crooked and you have cleaned all the things listed above, throw the die in the nearest river and walk away (assuming you have a good press and do not suspect it is the problem).
If the body is straight and just the neck is crooked, then there might me some help for that.
If the neck is the issue, and it is a standard die, get with the outfit that made it, I assure you, they will want to make it right. If it is a bushing die, clean the bushing section of your die again and clean the bushing.
If that doesn't work, reverse the bushing and try again. Try giving the bushing lots of room to float around, and if that doesn't work, stick a straight case in the die with a very loose bushing and then lock the bushing down with a rubber gasket if necessary. Try a new bushing.

Sometimes the shell holder is wonky, try a different shell holder.

Time for another cup of coffee,
Good luck
CW

 

[Thor357]

O-ring between the die lock ring and press sometimes helps with alignment.
Clean your shell holder well.
Clean your brass prior to sizing. This will actually give you a bit more shoulder bump as well.
Give your die a good cleaning with brake cleaner and then lube with whatever case lube you use.
Use good quality case lube.

I chased this some time back, my rigs like straight ammo.
Figure out which part of the brass is not playing well. If it is the body of the brass (not the neck) that is crooked and you have cleaned all the things listed above, throw the die in the nearest river and walk away (assuming you have a good press and do not suspect it is the problem).
If the body is straight and just the neck is crooked, then there might me some help for that.
If the neck is the issue, and it is a standard die, get with the outfit that made it, I assure you, they will want to make it right. If it is a bushing die, clean the bushing section of your die again and clean the bushing.
If that doesn't work, reverse the bushing and try again. Try giving the bushing lots of room to float around, and if that doesn't work, stick a straight case in the die with a very loose bushing and then lock the bushing down with a rubber gasket if necessary. Try a new bushing.

Sometimes the shell holder is wonky, try a different shell holder.

Time for another cup of coffee,
Good luck
CW

Excellent advice! Thanks.
Here's what I'm working with. I use a Forster .308 sizing die.
I use a Redding single stage press (Rock Chucker, about 3 years old).
I have an LE Wilson mandrel die.
I'm using Starline Brass ( 6-8 firings).
Sierra Match King Tipped bullets.
A Forster micrometer seating die.
The seating die is flush to the press.
Shell holder has been cleaned as well as where it sits.
The dies have been cleaned.
I use Hornady Unique Case Lube (sparingly).
I don't have a nearby river to chuck a rather expensive (to me) sizing die into. And I'm not throwing anything away!
I just bought a Hornady Concentricity gage and on a whim I decided to check a few case for concentricity.
I only ran into this on about 6 out of 50 cases. Some had the body off by as much as .007 and or the neck or both.
The weird thing is they chambered fine and the bullets only had about 0.0015.
Should I focus on the runout of the bullets regardless of what the case shows?
How critical is case (body) runout to accuracy/precision?
Thank you for your time and expertise.

 

[Mulligan]

Excellent advice! Thanks.
Here's what I'm working with. I use a Forster .308 sizing die.
I use a Redding single stage press (Rock Chucker, about 3 years old).
I have an LE Wilson mandrel die.
I'm using Starline Brass ( 6-8 firings).
Sierra Match King Tipped bullets.
A Forster micrometer seating die.
The seating die is flush to the press.
Shell holder has been cleaned as well as where it sits.
The dies have been cleaned.
I use Hornady Unique Case Lube (sparingly).
I don't have a nearby river to chuck a rather expensive (to me) sizing die into. And I'm not throwing anything away!
I just bought a Hornady Concentricity gage and on a whim I decided to check a few case for concentricity.
I only ran into this on about 6 out of 50 cases. Some had the body off by as much as .007 and or the neck or both.
The weird thing is they chambered fine and the bullets only had about 0.0015.
Should I focus on the runout of the bullets regardless of what the case shows?
How critical is case (body) runout to accuracy/precision?
Thank you for your time and expertise.

If the loaded round is measuring .0015" run-out on the bullet, you have arrived. Go shoot and have fun. Most folks have a bunch more run-out than that. Mark the offenders with a sharpie on the base, if they are weirdos the neck time you load, use them for setting up equipment or throw them away.

CW

 

[DShortt]

Excellent advice! Thanks.
Here's what I'm working with. I use a Forster .308 sizing die.
I use a Redding single stage press (Rock Chucker, about 3 years old).
I have an LE Wilson mandrel die.
I'm using Starline Brass ( 6-8 firings).
Sierra Match King Tipped bullets.
A Forster micrometer seating die.
The seating die is flush to the press.
Shell holder has been cleaned as well as where it sits.
The dies have been cleaned.
I use Hornady Unique Case Lube (sparingly).
I don't have a nearby river to chuck a rather expensive (to me) sizing die into. And I'm not throwing anything away!
I just bought a Hornady Concentricity gage and on a whim I decided to check a few case for concentricity.
I only ran into this on about 6 out of 50 cases. Some had the body off by as much as .007 and or the neck or both.
The weird thing is they chambered fine and the bullets only had about 0.0015.
Should I focus on the runout of the bullets regardless of what the case shows?
How critical is case (body) runout to accuracy/precision?
Thank you for your time and expertise.

I personally am not a fan of the Hornady concentricity gauge. It measures off the case base and bullet nose and I'm not convinced that is the best way to go about getting a concentricity measurement. I prefer the Sinclair version as the run-out measurement is based off the case body as measured on the neck/bullet.
Some will have a different opinion, and that's fine. Some don't even concern themselves with concentricity/run-out and that's fine, too.

Just my opinion and worth no more than what you paid for it.

 

[Thor357]

I personally am not a fan of the Hornady concentricity gauge. It measures off the case base and bullet nose and I'm not convinced that is the best way to go about getting a concentricity measurement. I prefer the Sinclair version as the run-out measurement is based off the case body as measured on the neck/bullet.
Some will have a different opinion, and that's fine. Some don't even concern themselves with concentricity/run-out and

Hmm...okay. I bought it because it was the only one I found that has a "fix it" feature.
Otherwise I have no clue how remedy excessive runout. How do you "fix it?"
I've used precision measuring equipment most of my life every day up to CMM's
In my opinion this Hornady gage, while exceptionally simple in design, I believe is adequate to give accurate results not precise perhaps but adequate. I looked at the Sinclair one but I didn't see anything in it to fix a round with excessive runout.
By the way, how much is too much and what is the goal?
Hornady says .002-.003. Mine are mostly within that spec and many are well below.

that's fine, too.

Just my opinion and worth no more than what you paid for it.

 

[DShortt]

Hmm...okay. I bought it because it was the only one I found that has a "fix it" feature.
Otherwise I have no clue how remedy excessive runout. How do you "fix it?"
I've used precision measuring equipment most of my life every day up to CMM's
In my opinion this Hornady gage, while exceptionally simple in design, I believe is adequate to give accurate results not precise perhaps but adequate. I looked at the Sinclair one but I didn't see anything in it to fix a round with excessive runout.
By the way, how much is too much and what is the goal?
Hornady says .002-.003. Mine are mostly within that spec and many are well below.

Well, that 'fix it' aspect of that gauge is what I REALLY don't like about it.

By attempting to push the loaded round back toward 'straight', there's no identifying where the measured run-out is really at. So what will happen is, you'll shove the bullet against the neck and probably create uneven neck tension and have a crooked case neck. So essentially you're likely to create a bigger issue than you had to begin with.

Once the bullet is seated, there's no 'fixing' run out. Might as well shoot it and move on. You need to identify where the run-out is coming from and address THAT problem, rather than trying to 'fix' problems after the fact.

Again, just my opinion.

As far as what is or is not acceptable run-out, you'll just have to let the target tell you. I look at concentricity whenever I first start loading a new combination.(Dies/case/bullet/seater) Once I am happy with the loaded rounds, I don't check again unless I have an unexpected accuracy issue. I DO make sure I use the same FLS/shell holder/seater/press/case combination every time. If I change something, then I check concentricity again.

 

[Mulligan]

Well, that 'fix it' aspect of that gauge is what I REALLY don't like about it.

By attempting to push the loaded round back toward 'straight', there's no identifying where the measured run-out is really at. So what will happen is, you'll shove the bullet against the neck and probably create uneven neck tension and have a crooked case neck. So essentially you're likely to create a bigger issue than you had to begin with.

Once the bullet is seated, there's no 'fixing' run out. Might as well shoot it and move on. You need to identify where the run-out is coming from and address THAT problem, rather than trying to 'fix' problems after the fact.

Again, just my opinion.

As far as what is or is not acceptable run-out, you'll just have to let the target tell you. I look at concentricity whenever I first start loading a new combination.(Dies/case/bullet/seater) Once I am happy with the loaded rounds, I don't check again unless I have an unexpected accuracy issue. I DO make sure I use the same FLS/shell holder/seater/press/case combination every time. If I change something, then I check concentricity again.

I agree completely.
CW

 

[DocBII]

Thor357,

Try roll sizing the brass to see if that makes any difference.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[Straightshooter1]

Excellent advice! Thanks.
Here's what I'm working with. I use a Forster .308 sizing die.
I use a Redding single stage press (Rock Chucker, about 3 years old).
I have an LE Wilson mandrel die.
I'm using Starline Brass ( 6-8 firings).
Sierra Match King Tipped bullets.
A Forster micrometer seating die.
The seating die is flush to the press.
Shell holder has been cleaned as well as where it sits.
The dies have been cleaned.
I use Hornady Unique Case Lube (sparingly).
I don't have a nearby river to chuck a rather expensive (to me) sizing die into. And I'm not throwing anything away!
I just bought a Hornady Concentricity gage and on a whim I decided to check a few case for concentricity.
I only ran into this on about 6 out of 50 cases. Some had the body off by as much as .007 and or the neck or both.
The weird thing is they chambered fine and the bullets only had about 0.0015.
Should I focus on the runout of the bullets regardless of what the case shows?
How critical is case (body) runout to accuracy/precision?
Thank you for your time and expertise.

I have a Hornady concentricity tool I got many years ago (it's collecting a lot of dust ) and switched to a Sinclair tool, which I like much better. The Hornady tool (mounting the case to the base the way it does) didn't give me the same readings as the Sinclair tool as the grip on the base apparently wasn't square to the case. And it seems the grip on the base can change the reading too. So I look for a way to repurpose that tool.

Giving how the case in mounted in the Hornady tool, it's not surprising to me where you can see .007 TIR on the case or neck and still have a .0015 TIR on the bullet.

I like to have my cases as perfect as possible, even though some of the things are such that it just doesn't show up on target. Case neck runout does affect the bullet's runout, so I like having the runout on the necks almost perfect (usually mine at +/- .0005) after using a Forster honed FL sizing die and then expanded with a mandrel to the neck tension I'm after. Typically, my TIR is at or less than .002. In the past I've had as much as .006 - .007" TIR, which did make a difference on target in my experience. Anything .004" or greater on bullet TIR isn't acceptable in my book.

 

[Murray Brook]

If the run-out doesn't come from a chamber problem, then purchase an inexpensive Redding body die and an LCD (Lee Collet Die as @Homerange posted) and you will get neck run-out as good as custom dies or very close.

 

[Thor357]

Thor357,

Try roll sizing the brass to see if that makes any difference.

HTH,
DocBII

What's "roll sizing?"

 

[DShortt]

What's "roll sizing?"

A $1K dollar machine is required.

That was enough to make up my mind.

I've other places to spend my $$$.

Especially when we're discussing a 'problem' that may not even exist.

 

[Straightshooter1]

What's "roll sizing?"

From what I've read, it's a tool that's good at sizing down closer to the web in order to eliminate "clickers". A shooting buddy of mine has one; why I don't know since he's not ever mentioned having an issue with "clickers". Anyway, here's that machine:

Universal Rollsizer

The Universal Rollsizer is an Adjustable Rollsizer capable of rollsizing all cases between 380ACP and 50BMG in one machine. Vernier accurate, high precision suited to low volume reloaders looking for the ultimate in accuracy. Your cases can be dialled in on the base to suit factory or custom...

rollsizer.com

 

[Thor357]

From what I've read, it's a tool that's good at sizing down closer to the web in order to eliminate "clickers". A shooting buddy of mine has one; why I don't know since he's not ever mentioned having an issue with "clickers". Anyway, here's that machine:

Universal Rollsizer

The Universal Rollsizer is an Adjustable Rollsizer capable of rollsizing all cases between 380ACP and 50BMG in one machine. Vernier accurate, high precision suited to low volume reloaders looking for the ultimate in accuracy. Your cases can be dialled in on the base to suit factory or custom...

rollsizer.com

YIKES!!! Umm...I'd get this if it made me younger, taller, richer and less handsome!!!
Am I chasing another rabbit down a hole again?
Oh, and I'm heading to my buddy's range tomorrow with ammo I made based on your advice!
I made 4 different 50 round loads to try. Wish me luck!
Would you like me to DM you the results?

 

[DShortt]

YIKES!!! Umm...I'd get this if it made me younger, taller, richer and less handsome!!!
Am I chasing another rabbit down a hole again?
Oh, and I'm heading to my buddy's range tomorrow with ammo I made based on your advice!
I made 4 different 50 round loads to try. Wish me luck!
Would you like me to DM you the results?

So, if I understand correctly, you're planning to fire 200 rounds down range?

I don't know what your criteria is for 4 different 50 round loads, but that should establish a point of reference at least.

If you're chasing run-out before you've even established an accurate load, then I'd say you definitely have the cart in front of the horse.

And it would be pertinent to know the chambering, rifle, shooting position and yardage.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Assuming you have a decent quality FL sizing die, what do you do about brass runout if you encounter that?
Lets assume you don't have the funds to go out and buy a premium FL sizing die, you just have to try and make what you got work.

The only time I see a lot of crooked cases is dies that aggressively size the neck down with pull through expanders that then have to aggressively size the neck back up.

A Lee collet die can actually help but it’s even better with a body die so the problem doesn’t have to be dealt with or another quality die.

 

[DShortt]

The only time I see a lot of crooked cases is dies that aggressively size the neck down with pull through expanders that then have to aggressively size the neck back up.

A Lee collet die can actually help but it’s even better with a body die so the problem doesn’t have to be dealt with or another quality die.

I avoid expanders when possible. If I do use one, I dry-lube the inside of the case neck. And I avoid over-sizing the neck no matter what.

I'll chuck a die in the trash before I'll chase a problem like that.