440YD Ladder Test 6.5 Creedmoor Savage Long Range Hunter

[DeadWoodDan]

Curious what you think my next steps should be? Or what I should have done different.

I have never done a ladder load at this distance, usually shooting 3-5shot groups at 100. I'm sure my shooting skills need alot of improvement and well this isn't a custom rifle but hoping to see what it and I can do. Just getting back into shooting.

Shot off a bench Bald Eagle front rest and Protector rear rest
SSW 13MPH
49% humidity
46 degrees
Athlon Optics Talos Rifle Scope 6-24x 50mm
Hornady ELD-X 6.5mm, 143 Grain
Magnospeed Sportsman chronograph
Two shot groups. I would shoot the two loads then go mark the target so barrell got to cool a bit between each .3gr increase in powder.
STAball 6.5_Charges thrown on a fx120i /V4
Win. LR
Hornady brass
1) 41.4gr (2554,2582fps)
2) 41.7gr (2607, 2624fps)
3) 42.0gr (2619, 2619fps)
4) 42.3gr (2678, 2640fps)
5) 42.6gr (2648,2691fps)
6) 42.9gr (2701, 2696fps)
7) 43.2gr (2705, 2700fps)
8) 43.5gr ( 2732,2711fps)
9) 43.8gr (2784, 2761fps)
10) 44.1gr (2782,2780fps)
11) 44.4gr (2805,2802fps)

 

[RegionRat]

FWIW, you can see that there is a cluster in the lower part of that pattern, and then some shots from between load 3 and load 6 that jump up and then come back down.

If there is any validity to the results, and you re-tested this on a different day, you would want to see this pattern repeat.

If you wanted to satisfy your curiosity, you would re-test the same ladder and see if it repeated, or, you could just pick something away from those big jumps from 3 - 6 (say a load between 8 and 9, 43.7 gr for example roughly 2750 fps) and see if a larger sample group makes you happy.

Try to pick a day with less wind for load testing if possible. 13 MPH is enough to require some skills if it isn't steady.

If you are just starting out, there is nothing wrong with just picking load 8.5 and practicing at 440 or farther till you can shoot a good group on several different days with varying weather.

When you get some experience, you can revisit the test and see if it still looks the same to you. Take your time and give yourself a chance to learn the ropes. It takes lots of shots in wind and in different weather to drive the gun well out at distance.

If there is a competition club or range nearby, go get yourself adopted by a good mentor. Your skills will climb much faster shooting with folks that can show you the ropes.


Good Luck and in for the range reports.

 

[ronsatspokane]

I've never shot staball but if the burn rate is anywhere near H4350 (which it is supposed to be) then those are pretty hot loads even though the velocities seem low. I don't think that Hornady brass is going to stand up to very many firings. BTDT but every gun is different. How long is your barrel and what twist rate?

As far as your target, The trouble with shooting at distance is that there are a lot of variables that enter the picture and can result in spurious results. For example, look at 4 and 6. If 5 was in the neighborhood I'd say that you might have found a node, but nodes don't behave like that. Increasing and decreasing head or tail winds can explain that. I'd say try again at 100 with 5 rounds per load then jump out to distance testing what you saw at 100. Then again, a soothsayer could come along and read something in your target that I don't see.

I found that in a 30 inch barrel with a 1:8 twist 40.5 to 41.5 of H4350 shoots very well with Berger 140 Hybrid Target bullets. 41.5 gives me about 2835 fps. I shoot small primer Lapua brass these days.

 

[DeadWoodDan]

I've never shot staball but if the burn rate is anywhere near H4350 (which it is supposed to be) then those are pretty hot loads even though the velocities seem low. I don't think that Hornady brass is going to stand up to very many firings. BTDT but every gun is different. How long is your barrel and what twist rate?

As far as your target, The trouble with shooting at distance is that there are a lot of variables that enter the picture and can result in spurious results. For example, look at 4 and 6. If 5 was in the neighborhood I'd say that you might have found a node, but nodes don't behave like that. Increasing and decreasing head or tail winds can explain that. I'd say try again at 100 with 5 rounds per load then jump out to distance testing what you saw at 100. Then again, a soothsayer could come along and read something in your target that I don't see.

I found that in a 30 inch barrel with a 1:8 twist 40.5 to 41.5 of H4350 shoots very well with Berger 140 Hybrid Target bullets. 41.5 gives me about 2835 fps. I shoot small primer Lapua brass these days.

26" 1:8" twist (I need to verify this).

 

[std7mag]

Yeah, I'm in agreement that I wouldn't try to do a ladder test at distance in a 13mph wind.

You say it was coming from SSW. But you don't say which direction that you're shooting.
So to us, it could be a tail wind, head wind, or cross wind.
All will affect the bullet flight charactistics differently.

 

[DeadWoodDan]

Yeah, I'm in agreement that I wouldn't try to do a ladder test at distance in a 13mph wind.

You say it was coming from SSW. But you don't say which direction that you're shooting.
So to us, it could be a tail wind, head wind, or cross wind.
All will affect the bullet flight charactistics differently.

Shooting straight into it .

 

[FeMan]

How did you arrive at the seating depth you used? The target suggests to me that the seating liked loads 5 and 6 but they are not at the node. I’d say there is a low node somewhere in the 1-3 range and a high node at 7-11. Is pick a load in the middle of this, do some seating work to get a solid group and repeat the ladder. FWIW I always do seating first and then do the ladder to find the mode that corresponds to a solid seating depth. If you do a ladder and the change the seating, your ladder could change and produce different results.

 

[jackieschmidt]

To the OP, you are aware that when you remove that MagnetoSpeed Chronograph the barrel harmonics will change, possibly changing your tune?

 

[DeadWoodDan]

How did you arrive at the seating depth you used? The target suggests to me that the seating liked loads 5 and 6 but they are not at the node. I’d say there is a low node somewhere in the 1-3 range and a high node at 7-11. Is pick a load in the middle of this, do some seating work to get a solid group and repeat the ladder. FWIW I always do seating first and then do the ladder to find the mode that corresponds to a solid seating depth. If you do a ladder and the change the seating, your ladder could change and produce different results.

I used the published seating depth for this bullet & powder. I was under the belief that the powder mfg. Data would be close for seating depth?

 

[DeadWoodDan]

To the OP, you are aware that when you remove that MagnetoSpeed Chronograph the barrel harmonics will change, possibly changing your tune?

Looks like i should have low wind early in the morning. I've worked up 5 shots at each charge weight to shot at 100yds. Do you recommend not to use the chronograph?

 

[jelenko]

I would recommend to not use the chrono until you have a load that you like and have tested.
Then you could bring out the chrono - but what would the point be?

 

[DLT]

To the OP, you are aware that when you remove that MagnetoSpeed Chronograph the barrel harmonics will change, possibly changing your tune?

THIS !!!!!!! That is the main reason I shed my magneto speed

 

[FeMan]

I used the published seating depth for this bullet & powder. I was under the belief that the powder mfg. Data would be close for seating depth?

Not at all. Each barrel is different and you need to do this for yourself.

 

[DeadWoodDan]

Got a chance to shoot 5 shot groups at 100yds. Nothing spectacular! I have my POI hitting 2" low. Aiming at the top row POA.

Loading Approximately 0.088" jump to lands. Going to repeat test for seating depth next. Just curious if I should repeat all charges or concentrate on what everyone believes maybe a node? Thinking there maybe a node at #6/7 42.9-43.2. Also #3/4 42.0-42.3....ironically group #1

41.4 is my best group and wondering if I shouldn't revisit that and work lower. @ronsatspokane you had a few observations that that would validate this also!

Charge #7 43.2 gr I have a shot that is way low. As I was marking the impacts I am speculating that I was aiming at the wrong bullseye/target; one below it.

100yds _ clean bore _ no chronograph.
8am
32*F / 84%cloud cover / 62% humidity / E 3mph ( shooting S/W)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[JFrank]

I would have focused around shots 1-3 from the first outing.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I bet a seating depth test will show you need to be some closer to the lands. I bet a safe load in the 42 grain area would be a place to do it.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Are those 1 inch squares? If they are then the best group I see is 1 MOA. #6 would be 2 MOA with that low flyer. I'm not seeing anything that I would consider acceptable and I would not be looking at where they cluster but rather how tight the group is. If you are getting one group that is tight and the adjacent groups start to open up but remain somewhat consistent then you are "probably" in a node. At that point you could stretch it out to 500 yards and see if it still holds in decent conditions.

I know a lot of people are into the ladder test method but in my experience I have not found a tight shooting load via ladder testing. There will probably be a lot of people jumping on that statement in strong disagreement but hey, whatever blows ones dress up (as they say).

As I look at your groups, #1 shows some promise going forward. What is that load? As far as things to play with:

1) You are jumping nearly 90 thousands to the lands. That's a pretty good jump. I start at 20 thou and rarely need to change it for 6.5. But then again, I'm not loading to mag length.
2) What brand of rifle and barrel is this. Is it a pencil barrel on an action set in a plastic stock or something more substantial? Is it capable of shooting tighter than 1 MOA (like target #1)?
3) Setup, how is the tracking of the rifle under recoil. Is it jumping off the rest or slipping side ways or does it track nicely and return to battery with little effort and movement?
4) You mention you are shooting off a Bald Eagle rest and a protector bag. Are you using more of a free recoil in your testing or are you putting a lot of pressure on the stock and cheek plate? If you are not free recoiling, heavy handed holding of the rifle could account for some of the groups and the inconsistency among the groups. I see a lot of people choking the wrist of the rifle like a chicken and popping their head up right as they pull the trigger as if to see the impact with the naked eye. Make sure you hold your thumb on the same side of the stock as the rest of your hand and don't squeeze the stock then hold and follow through.

Please don't take offense to the above comments/recommendations. In online forums we never know the experience level of the shooter and often not even the quality of the equipment.

P.S. as Karcken say's above, keep your loads down as you test closer to the lands. The closer you get to a jam the more sensitive load gets. It's easy to step off that cliff and end up blowing primers or something worse.

 

[RegionRat]

Speed is cold comfort if there is no accuracy.

My best guess from the last test, is that this will not be a <0.5 MOA combination. When it isn't tight at 100 yards, it certainly won't be tighter at distances beyond.

Many types of shooting can be done with a system that gives a fat 1 MOA level of performance, but in other kinds of shooting that isn't good enough.

The advice on what to do next would be based on the kind of shooting you plan to do with this and your goals. What are your goals?

 

[Webster]

Curious what you think my next steps should be? Or what I should have done different.

I have never done a ladder load at this distance, usually shooting 3-5shot groups at 100. I'm sure my shooting skills need alot of improvement and well this isn't a custom rifle but hoping to see what it and I can do. Just getting back into shooting.

Shot off a bench Bald Eagle front rest and Protector rear rest
SSW 13MPH
49% humidity
46 degrees
Athlon Optics Talos Rifle Scope 6-24x 50mm
Hornady ELD-X 6.5mm, 143 Grain
Magnospeed Sportsman chronograph
Two shot groups. I would shoot the two loads then go mark the target so barrell got to cool a bit between each .3gr increase in powder.
STAball 6.5_Charges thrown on a fx120i /V4
Win. LR
Hornady brass
1) 41.4gr (2554,2582fps)
2) 41.7gr (2607, 2624fps)
3) 42.0gr (2619, 2619fps)
4) 42.3gr (2678, 2640fps)
5) 42.6gr (2648,2691fps)
6) 42.9gr (2701, 2696fps)
7) 43.2gr (2705, 2700fps)
8) 43.5gr ( 2732,2711fps)
9) 43.8gr (2784, 2761fps)
10) 44.1gr (2782,2780fps)
11) 44.4gr (2805,2802fps)

Describe how you hold the rifle when shooting. Shoulder contact, grip with trigger hand ect. I try not to have any cheek weld, I feel it adds one more complication. Do you flinch when the gun goes off. Can you see the cross hair move on the target when the gun goes off. I would expect groups under 1" at 100 yards with a factory gun. It would be nice if you could try different bullets but it gets expensive. Hornady isn't the best bulet. I shoot them a lot for GH hunting. Try a box of Berger bulets. I'm not a real good shooter but I can hold under .500" with good bullets. When I was younger I shot wallet groups with a 7mm Rem mag. Always was apprehensive and had a weird trigger pull. 2 lb. trigger always felt like 20 lbs. Good trigger pull when aiming at a GH. The tension seams to go away. I don't look at chrono numbers just group size.

 

[DeadWoodDan]

Are those 1 inch squares? If they are then the best group I see is 1 MOA. #6 would be 2 MOA with that low flyer. I'm not seeing anything that I would consider acceptable and I would not be looking at where they cluster but rather how tight the group is. If you are getting one group that is tight and the adjacent groups start to open up but remain somewhat consistent then you are "probably" in a node. At that point you could stretch it out to 500 yards and see if it still holds in decent conditions.

I know a lot of people are into the ladder test method but in my experience I have not found a tight shooting load via ladder testing. There will probably be a lot of people jumping on that statement in strong disagreement but hey, whatever blows ones dress up (as they say).

As I look at your groups, #1 shows some promise going forward. What is that load? As far as things to play with:

1) You are jumping nearly 90 thousands to the lands. That's a pretty good jump. I start at 20 thou and rarely need to change it for 6.5. But then again, I'm not loading to mag length.
2) What brand of rifle and barrel is this. Is it a pencil barrel on an action set in a plastic stock or something more substantial? Is it capable of shooting tighter than 1 MOA (like target #1)?
3) Setup, how is the tracking of the rifle under recoil. Is it jumping off the rest or slipping side ways or does it track nicely and return to battery with little effort and movement?
4) You mention you are shooting off a Bald Eagle rest and a protector bag. Are you using more of a free recoil in your testing or are you putting a lot of pressure on the stock and cheek plate? If you are not free recoiling, heavy handed holding of the rifle could account for some of the groups and the inconsistency among the groups. I see a lot of people choking the wrist of the rifle like a chicken and popping their head up right as they pull the trigger as if to see the impact with the naked eye. Make sure you hold your thumb on the same side of the stock as the rest of your hand and don't squeeze the stock then hold and follow through.

Please don't take offense to the above comments/recommendations. In online forums we never know the experience level of the shooter and often not even the quality of the equipment.

P.S. as Karcken say's above, keep your loads down as you test closer to the lands. The closer you get to a jam the more sensitive load gets. It's easy to step off that cliff and end up blowing primers or something worse.

Yes those are 1" squares
1) yep, I should have known to ask or at least second question. Sometime read to much and the right information doesn't stick. As another member posted every rifle is different.
2)This is a stock Savage Long range Hunter . heavy-contour barrel with an adjustable muzzle brake. AccuStock with the AccuFit system. Again just slitghtly better than average off the shelf rifle. Savage does not gurantee sub MOA but marketed to deliver, or perform under, 1 MOA at 100 yards with premium loads.
3) I need pay a little more attention to this. I would say it does not do bad and I can usually pick up my target with little effort. I am sure I need to improve on this just not sure how yet. It is a light "r" rifle at just over 8#s.
4) Again I am doing my best not to add any more variance from my position / hold. I will work on how my wrist and hold going forward but feel i slip into bad habits from time to time.

Thanks for suggestions and comments