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Anybody install hygrometers on their powder keg caps?

fatelvis

Silver $$ Contributor
I was thinking of boring the appropriate sized hole in the caps of my 8# powder kegs, and install one of these (using silicon caulk to seal of course), so you can monitor powder humidity of your powder at a glance. Has anybody tried this yet? I figure it would be a much more cost effective method than using the Kestrel link dropped into the bottle, like Litz uses. Together with the humidity packs, I hope to get this humidity variance thing licked!. Please let me know how it works for you!
 
I was thinking of boring the appropriate sized hole in the caps of my 8# powder kegs, and install one of these (using silicon caulk to seal of course), so you can monitor powder humidity of your powder at a glance. Has anybody tried this yet? I figure it would be a much more cost effective method than using the Kestrel link dropped into the bottle, like Litz uses. Together with the humidity packs, I hope to get this humidity variance thing licked!. Please let me know how it works for you!
I've never done what you're suggesting,but I do use a temp/hygrometer guage at the range and have seen and measured direct correlation of temp changes and humidity changes and velocity changes.......not only me but others at the range as well so I'm not a fluke. Good luck and stay safe.
 
I was thinking of boring the appropriate sized hole in the caps of my 8# powder kegs, and install one of these (using silicon caulk to seal of course), so you can monitor powder humidity of your powder at a glance. Has anybody tried this yet? I figure it would be a much more cost effective method than using the Kestrel link dropped into the bottle, like Litz uses. Together with the humidity packs, I hope to get this humidity variance thing licked!. Please let me know how it works for you!
I use these and just hang them in the jug by a small string/thread. I typically just do a spot check. I dont think there would be any issue but decided I didn’t want to leave cheap electronics with no haz rating in a powder jug in my house.

 
Does your powder stay at your bench? Or are you taking it on the road with you and loading at the range? If it stays in one place, can’t you just control the humidity where it is stored?
 
A shooting buddy forwarded an image of a 3D printed powder jug cap that was set up for those hygrometers. My first thought was the same as Rich's. If enough people put cheap electrical devices in powder jugs, eventually there will be a problem.

The Humidity packs work. I still dump powder into a 3 gallon paint bucket that's been hit with used dryer sheets and mix it before use.

Where I store my powder, the humidity drops from 55% to 42-44% over the course of a couple years. I've started using a couple large desiccant packs in the sealed 3 gallon paint bucket to age the powder down to 44% before I use it. It speeds the powder up noticeably but the moisture level stays stable. After mixing before use, I still check the current powder moisture with the Kestrel.

RH has become the popular designator for powder moisture but it's problematic. It changes significantly with small changes in temperature.

1770640771896.jpeg

Most don't/didn't work in an industry where the interaction of air and water were important and won't have something like this on their desktop. Point 1 was set up as a reference with a temperature of 60 degrees and 50% relative humidity. Point 2 is the same amount of moisture but at 50 degrees. The relative humidity has changed to 72%. This is because the amount of water it takes to saturate air rises significantly with temperature. Notice that the dew point didn't change. It makes a much better indication of the amount of moisture in air.

Dew point isn't perfect either, just better. Below, I changed the air pressure instead of the temperature. The pressure change is about 2000' of elevation. The relative humidity doesn't change as much as with the 10 degree temperature change and the dew point also changes a small amount. The local pressure doesn't change this much, but when comparing your numbers with someone else's, it'd be a good idea to check this.

1770641206579.jpeg

The performance of the equipment I worked on for 40 years changed strongly with air temperature and humidity. The electronic humidity monitoring instruments were easily the least reliable instruments. Those were industrial grade instruments and we had calibration standards. The Kestrel Drop is a consumer grade toy compared to them, and the Amazon instruments are several steps below that. I'm not writing that to dump on Kestrel. I think the Kestrel Drop is a useful tool for fringe hand loaders. I'm just trying to convey an appropriate sense of skepticism.

Another big step in the chain is the instruments measure the moisture level in the air above the powder, not the moisture of the powder. This has a couple consequences. The first is the air moisture level takes time on the order of several hours to stabilize after opening a powder jug or dumping it in a paint bucket and sealing it. The next is what happens in the air is fast compared to what's going on in the powder. So, even with mixing, changes in the actual powder moisture takes days. Without mixing, there will be layers of lower or higher moisture. Next, while there is a relationship between the amount of moisture in the powder and the air above it, they are not the same and that relationship likely varies with temperature.

The short version of all that is trend towards being suspicious of the instruments, start moisture measurements the day before, and don't chase changes of a few percent. The use of dew point rather than RH will also likely save some frustration.

Dew point is also another bit of reality. It's measured by lowering the temperature on a mirror until it clouds with condensed water. Below the dew point, the same thing is happening in a cartridge or jug. The amount of water in the powder is much greater than the air. I'm guessing this is one of the mechanisms that causes powder clumps. I've been meaning to test if there is a kink in the powder velocity/temperature sensitivity at the dew point but it hasn't made it to the top of the list yet. In the meantime, I store my powder in conditions above it's likely dew point. With fresh powder, that's around 50 degrees.
 
Dew point is the measurement of how much water vapor is in the air. RH tells you how much more water vapor can be absorbed into the air, which is why temperature is tied to the RH. As mentioned, the dew point is a more reliable measure than RH, but, RH meters are cheaper and basically are close enough for this use.

Moisture migration out of a product is a very slow process, which is why mfg's control humidity so closely with many processes. "Baking" a product at a higher temp will remove moisture, but, the time and temp involved (usually above 60C/140F for many hours) make it difficult for most uses.

Desiccants are useful to control moisture levels, but, not sure if they are compatible with powders since I've never seen a packet inside a powder container.
 
Ah yes . Just one more advantage of living in the Desert . Our average humidity level here bounces around 30% or less , except during Monsoon season . I think it was 18% yesterday .
 
I use these and just hang them in the jug by a small string/thread. I typically just do a spot check. I dont think there would be any issue but decided I didn’t want to leave cheap electronics with no haz rating in a powder jug in my house.

Right on. A cheap electrically powered device on top of 8# of powder. Monitoring humidity doesn't change it. Dessicating packs are much more complicated than you think. Wish I could find the article.
1. Quality paks are rated in units.
2. The number of units required is related to the container volume and and water content. Some calculation needed here.
3. You need to determine when the pak has absorbed as much as it can hold and develope a replacement schedule.
 
To be clear....

I'm not suggesting that lower moisture is better. The manufacturers leave some moisture in there deliberately. The increase in static cling with decreasing moisture is extremely noticeable. Wiping the bucket with used dryer sheets helps significantly but doesn't eliminate it. I haven't figured out a way to treat the original container either.

What I'm trying to do is acknowledge the inevitable and speed it along. I do not leave the desiccant in the powder once it's reached the moisture level it normally does after a year of storage. That way I don't have moisture leaching in from the humidity pack at the top of the powder and out the sides of the container creating layers of different speed powders.

Yes, there are a few types of desiccants. Some can dry air significantly more than others and the range matters for the moisture levels we're working with here. The mass ratio between the desiccant and powder determines how quickly the powder will dry and how often the desiccant pack will need to be recharged. The packs I'm using give weights for fully dry and fully wet as well as a color change.

1770666237609.jpeg

Nominal 2# of desiccant in 8# of powder. It drops the dew point 10 degrees in a couple days.

Yes, industrial drying is most often done with heating. Baking powder on a cookie sheet in the oven was a nonstarter for me. I bought some of those cheap hygrometers and also decided ohhellno. I don't think the Kestrel is a great idea for continuous monitoring either. Measuring the dew point only before using the powder minimizes the exposure.

An RH value without a temperature is next to worthless. Raising the temperature in my earlier example to 90 degrees, the RH drops from 50% to 18%. Lowering it to 41 degrees gives an RH of 100%.
 
I'd make an elevated grill to put the desiccant bags on. I know the bags are porous so could accumulate dust from the powder. IIRC the desiccant is only an issue if the stuff degrades too much.

When storing 3D print filament I keep the desiccant out of contact with the filament, usually in the bottom of whatever container I am using since the filament is elevated for better air circulation.
 
To be clear....

I'm not suggesting that lower moisture is better. The manufacturers leave some moisture in there deliberately. The increase in static cling with decreasing moisture is extremely noticeable. Wiping the bucket with used dryer sheets helps significantly but doesn't eliminate it. I haven't figured out a way to treat the original container either.

What I'm trying to do is acknowledge the inevitable and speed it along. I do not leave the desiccant in the powder once it's reached the moisture level it normally does after a year of storage. That way I don't have moisture leaching in from the humidity pack at the top of the powder and out the sides of the container creating layers of different speed powders.

Yes, there are a few types of desiccants. Some can dry air significantly more than others and the range matters for the moisture levels we're working with here. The mass ratio between the desiccant and powder determines how quickly the powder will dry and how often the desiccant pack will need to be recharged. The packs I'm using give weights for fully dry and fully wet as well as a color change.

View attachment 1740916

Nominal 2# of desiccant in 8# of powder. It drops the dew point 10 degrees in a couple days.

Yes, industrial drying is most often done with heating. Baking powder on a cookie sheet in the oven was a nonstarter for me. I bought some of those cheap hygrometers and also decided ohhellno. I don't think the Kestrel is a great idea for continuous monitoring either. Measuring the dew point only before using the powder minimizes the exposure.

An RH value without a temperature is next to worthless. Raising the temperature in my earlier example to 90 degrees, the RH drops from 50% to 18%. Lowering it to 41 degrees gives an RH of 100%.
RH is related to the water in the air above the powder and not related to the water contained by the powder or adhering to the surface at a molecule level.

Don't know, does changing the RH by changing the temp change the actual water content or just change the numbers? If your measuring RH at the same temp in your house the number you get should relate to the amount of water in the air above the powder. Just put dissicator in the container and accept whatever you get.

Relative Humidity, indicating the air holds maximum water vapor it can at that specific temperature, Your measuring the air above the powder. Correct me if I am wrong but does RH will vary with temp without a change in the amount of water present.

I thought the main reason for RH is that it relates to how fast moisture evaporates from your skin giving a cooling affect.

A big factor in powder deteriation is the amount of residual acid remaining in the nitro cellulose.
 
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Don't know, does changing the RH by changing the temp change the actual water content or just change the numbers?
The water content stays fixed. At higher temperatures, air can hold more water. RH is the percentage of maximum so even though the amount of water stays the same it's percentage of what could be goes down.

If the temperature returns to the original value, the RH will too.

The first screenshot I posted showed the H2O Mass Fraction at the same level for 2 temperatures. The RH changes but the Dew Point doesn't. The Dew point does change with pressure, but it's a smaller problem.
 
I Don't need to do this step. I weigh my primers.
We're basically having the "but did you weigh the anvils" discussion.

It's the same group of hand loaders. It has nothing to do with groups. It's only the small slice of the group that shoot COFs that favor small velocity spreads and the ability to predict what the velocity of the first shot will be within a few fps before it's fired.
 
RH is related to the water in the air above the powder and not related to the water contained by the powder or adhering to the surface at a molecule level.

Don't know, does changing the RH by changing the temp change the actual water content or just change the numbers? If your measuring RH at the same temp in your house the number you get should relate to the amount of water in the air above the powder. Just put dissicator in the container and accept whatever you get.

Relative Humidity, indicating the air holds maximum water vapor it can at that specific temperature, Your measuring the air above the powder. Correct me if I am wrong but does RH will vary with temp without a change in the amount of water present.

I thought the main reason for RH is that it relates to how fast moisture evaporates from your skin giving a cooling affect.

A big factor in powder deteriation is the amount of residual acid remaining in the nitro cellulose.
Yes, we are measuring the moisture in the air above the powder. No, it is not the moisture in the powder itself. They are related though. After closing that test bucket, the moisture in the air above the bucket will be at room level. Over a couple hours, it'll change towards a final value that is related to the moisture in the powder. This can be seen on the Kestral drop, especially if it is suspended above the powder. Eventually, the Kestral will read the same value whether it's suspended above the powder or immersed in it. I've also been successful in raising the powder moisture with humidity packs. It takes a lot longer than massive amounts of desiccant though.

The practical uses of that factoid are we don't want a cheap humidity meter sitting in the cap with a balled up Humidity Pack. It'll tell you about the humidity pack, not the air above the powder or powder itself. Next, it takes a couple hours for a reliable estimate on the air humidity after opening the jug. After that, you might recognize the potential for layers of different moisture levels in the powder. The paint bucket size was selected to allow stirring the powder by rotating the bucket like a cement mixer.

Relative Humidity doesn't indicate the maximum amount of water vapor air will hold at a given temperature and pressure. It indicates how close the actual water fraction is to the maximum. Because the maximum amount of water air will hold changes so quickly with air temperature, the RH changes without the moisture in the air changing. 10 degrees of temperature can change the RH estimate 20%. Even indoors, that's a normal summer cooling / winter heating range.

The science of the relationship between air and water is Psychrometry. It's a lot like Air Density in a ballistic ap. There were several applications that required air density estimates and they all came at it the easiest or most intuitive way for the task at hand. Depending on which direction you came to ballistic aps from, you'd use different methods to estimate the air density. Accommodating too many of those methods created comingling and confusion for those that hadn't thought about air density before and just wanted a drift and drop estimate. RH, dew point, wet bulb temperature, humidity ratio, water/air mass ratio, are all estimates of the amount of water in the air. Which one is used in a given industry depends on how easily it is estimated and how intuitive the result is.

In HVAC work, it's RH because it correlates well with human perception. People are comfortable at 40-50% RH over a wide range of temperatures. If you want to know how warm the glass doors in the supermarket freezer section need to be to prevent fogging, dew point is your number. I currently use dew point to estimate the probability of fog on the peaks I shoot from. In the industry I worked, we used Wet Bulb Temperature because in was the simplest to estimate cooled water temperature from. If I wanted to know how much water the cooling process was going to use, I switched to water/air mass ratios.
 
Yes, we are measuring the moisture in the air above the powder. No, it is not the moisture in the powder itself. They are related though. After closing that test bucket, the moisture in the air above the bucket will be at room level. Over a couple hours, it'll change towards a final value that is related to the moisture in the powder. This can be seen on the Kestral drop, especially if it is suspended above the powder. Eventually, the Kestral will read the same value whether it's suspended above the powder or immersed in it. I've also been successful in raising the powder moisture with humidity packs. It takes a lot longer than massive amounts of desiccant though.

The practical uses of that factoid are we don't want a cheap humidity meter sitting in the cap with a balled up Humidity Pack. It'll tell you about the humidity pack, not the air above the powder or powder itself. Next, it takes a couple hours for a reliable estimate on the air humidity after opening the jug. After that, you might recognize the potential for layers of different moisture levels in the powder. The paint bucket size was selected to allow stirring the powder by rotating the bucket like a cement mixer.

Relative Humidity doesn't indicate the maximum amount of water vapor air will hold at a given temperature and pressure. It indicates how close the actual water fraction is to the maximum. Because the maximum amount of water air will hold changes so quickly with air temperature, the RH changes without the moisture in the air changing. 10 degrees of temperature can change the RH estimate 20%. Even indoors, that's a normal summer cooling / winter heating range.

The science of the relationship between air and water is Psychrometry. It's a lot like Air Density in a ballistic ap. There were several applications that required air density estimates and they all came at it the easiest or most intuitive way for the task at hand. Depending on which direction you came to ballistic aps from, you'd use different methods to estimate the air density. Accommodating too many of those methods created comingling and confusion for those that hadn't thought about air density before and just wanted a drift and drop estimate. RH, dew point, wet bulb temperature, humidity ratio, water/air mass ratio, are all estimates of the amount of water in the air. Which one is used in a given industry depends on how easily it is estimated and how intuitive the result is.

In HVAC work, it's RH because it correlates well with human perception. People are comfortable at 40-50% RH over a wide range of temperatures. If you want to know how warm the glass doors in the supermarket freezer section need to be to prevent fogging, dew point is your number. I currently use dew point to estimate the probability of fog on the peaks I shoot from. In the industry I worked, we used Wet Bulb Temperature because in was the simplest to estimate cooled water temperature from. If I wanted to know how much water the cooling process was going to use, I switched to water/air mass ratios.
You are making the assumption that water in the powder exist only as water vapor between kernals. RH does not reflect water absorbed by the kernals if any and water molecules bonded (not wetted) to the kernal surface.

Key mechanisms for water bonding to surfaces include:
  • Hydrogen Bonding (Adhesion): The slightly positive hydrogen atoms of water are attracted to electronegative atoms (like oxygen or nitrogen) on a surface, while the slightly negative oxygen in water is attracted to positive sites on the surface.
  • Dipole-Dipole Interaction: Because water is a polar molecule, it is strongly attracted to other charged or polar surfaces.
This means that if it is attached to a powder kernal it has no affect on RH.

Bottom line just put a dissicant in the container and forget about it.
 
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