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7mm 08 vs 308 SAAMI vs CIP differances

6mmdasher

Silver $$ Contributor
SAAMI says 52000 psi for a 7mm 08 and 52000 for a 308. CIP says 62000 for a 7mm 08 and 62000 for a 308. But All the loading manuals load the 7mm 08 to 52000 and the 308 to 62000 approximately. look at a 7mm 08 with varget 42.2 gr max ans 48.gr for the 308. And I ran across a Saami print that has two preasures for a 7mm 08 52000 and 62000. What am I missing, same parent cartridge????
 
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SAAMI spec for 308 WIN using a 180 grain is 62 KSI Service Max Average pressure,
for 7-08 WIN for 140 grain is 61 KSI.

Keep in mind, these 61 and 62 KSI numbers are in pounds per square inch and are from a piezoelectric transducer calibrated in PSI.

Those other values you are showing at the 52,000 are CUP values which means Copper Crusher values.

You can't mix those two sets together since they are different methods, so watch for the CUP versus the KSI values.

Look towards the back of this document and you will see both the crusher pressure and the transducer pressure values.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...-2025-Centerfire-Rifle-Approved-2-10-2025.pdf
 
Since CIP was mentioned I will add that CIP is a transducer method also but the specific of how the case/chamber is prepared and the location the pressure is different. The pressures do not always align. Also CIP pressure. are measure in directly in BAR the conversion to PSI can also cause minor differences. These differences really show up in 223/5.56x 45.
 
Thank you for the information. I guess my real question is if you look in the Hornady Reloading manual a 7mm 08 154 gr bullet has a max load of 39 gr of Varget and a 308 with a 150-155 gr bullet has a max load of 44.9 gr of varget. To me it looks like te 7mm 08 is maxed at 52000 psi vs the 308 is maxed at 61-62000 psi same parent cartidge. What am i missing. Or am I looking at it wrong.
 
Thank you for the information. I guess my real question is if you look in the Hornady Reloading manual a 7mm 08 154 gr bullet has a max load of 39 gr of Varget and a 308 with a 150-155 gr bullet has a max load of 44.9 gr of varget. To me it looks like te 7mm 08 is maxed at 52000 psi vs the 308 is maxed at 61-62000 psi same parent cartidge. What am i missing. Or am I looking at it wrong.

The .308 the hole is bigger than .284.

Think of a 1/2" garden hose compared to a 3/8" garden hose with the same water source (potential pressure) trying to get through the hose.
 
Or am I looking at it wrong
You have to keep in mind that just because the parent case is the same, and the bullet masses are very similar, the exit area and internal combustion in their tests were not the same.

Two "identical" rifles, and two "identical" test barrels, may or may not turn out the same until tested in the lab. The test barrel folks are top notch and work hard to deliver what we expect. There is a normal variation between "good" test barrels, and every now and then one is wonky. The same goes for rifles that are supposed to be the same but often they are not.

Getting some variations on the order of one or two standard deviations in the hands of an expert is one thing, in an open forum it can cause pages and pages of swirl.

Internal ballistics is full of statistical behavior and folks that don't work in those kinds of places get their OCD all worked up.
 
Now ! Let me really mess with your brain . Most Target shooters have slightly "extended chambers , to allow for loading longer bullets , thus we also put more powder in the case to achieve higher velocities , because we are seating the bullet farther out in the case necks . Thus ; we are exceeding "BOOK VALUE" maximums , in a sense , without exceeding pressure values . :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Now ! Let me really mess with your brain . Most Target shooters have slightly "extended chambers , to allow for loading longer bullets , thus we also put more powder in the case to achieve higher velocities , because we are seating the bullet farther out in the case necks . Thus ; we are exceeding "BOOK VALUE" maximums , in a sense , without exceeding pressure values . :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
D-4297 brings up a good point about the effects of seating a bullet farther out in the case neck. The amount of throat lead can have a potential significant impact, in certain circumstances, on velocity and chamber pressure, if powder charge is increased. As an example, let’s look at a 6.5X55mm Swede load using the GRT ballistic software. For the sake of this example, let’s assume this load has reached two limitations. It has a maximum COAL due to the fact that the bullet is loaded out to the point that the bullet is touching the lands and, secondly, the powder charge has consumed all the available volume in the loaded round. The following are the parameters and the ballistic results for this load.


Powder Charge, R2243.9 gn
COAL3.0160"
Eff. Case Capacity 45.72 cc
Chamber PSI52452
Muzzle Velocity, fps2740
Load Ratio101.9%

Now, let’s assume that the load above is fired in the rifle with an increase in the throat lands of 0.200”. COAL of the round touching the lands is now 3.216” and there has been an increase in the available case capacity. With the increase in available case capacity and maintaining the same powder charge, lower load ratio, the chamber pressure and velocity is decreased.


Powder Charge, R2243.9 gn
COAL3.2160"
Eff. Case Capacity 48.48 cc
Chamber PSI45849
Muzzle Velocity, fps2657
Load Ratio96.1%

Since the longer throat lands has increased the available case capacity, let’s see what happens If the powder charge is increased to the point that the chamber pressure is identical to the original load. Looks like an additional 1.7 grains of powder is required to reach the chamber pressure of the original load and there is an increase in velocity of 23 fps over the original load. Even through the pressures of the two loads are identical, the additional powder produces a greater mass of combustion gases which results in an increase in predicted velocity.


Powder Charge, R2245.6 gn
COAL3.2160"
Eff. Case Capacity 48.48 cc
Chamber PSI52421
Muzzle Velocity, fps2763
Load Ratio99.9%

The original load had a load ratio of 101.9%. What happens if the longer throat lead load is loaded to a 101.9% load ratio? Looks like an increase in powder of 2.95 grains, an increase in velocity of 83 fps and an increase in chamber pressure of 4,022 psi.


Powder Charge, R2246.55 gn
COAL3.2160"
Eff. Case Capacity 48.48 cc
Chamber PSI56474
Muzzle Velocity, fps2823
Load Ratio101.9%

As always, anytime an increase in powder is made in a load, the potential impacts should be evaluated
 
What @Pirate69 writes above about throat/leade length (ie 'freebore') is 100% correct. Although well-known by many competition shooters and manufacturers for a long time, it still causes misunderstandings and confusion even on forums like this. A recent thread on 223 Rem FTR loads / pressures with Viht N150 and 90gn bullets showed this clearly. The OP's chamber was throated exceptionally long to see the chosen bullet seated ideally in the neck giving a COAL way beyond SAAMI and allowing (not just allowing, but needing) much heavier charges than those shown in factory reloading loads-tables. As this saw charges over 2gn higher than those in Viht's data, several contributors insisted this had to be an over-pressure dangerous combination attaching images of the relevant table in their posts to 'prove' the point.

Another and even more striking example of this effect is to compare data for the 6.5-284 Winchester wildcat with that for the 6.5-284 Norma. Most people will assume they're the same thing, but strictly speaking the former retains the parent cartridge's 2.8-inch or thereabouts COAL and appropriate length freebore. When Norma adopted the wildcat and changed it to optimise performance, the freebore and hence COAL were massively increased and charges / MVs also rose (and not by small amounts either). In practice, being a wildcat, the Winchester version could of course have any variation of freebore the shooter and his gunsmith decided on to suit the chosen bullet and purpose.

However, what even many of those who understand the principle involved here (ie making changes to the effective combustion chamber volume through chamber throating length) and its effect on pressure often become tied up on is the actual COAL figure the shooter seats the bullet to, as opposed to what the chamber allows. So people tell you that seating the bullet deeper increases pressures, irrespective. This applies to low capacity pistol cartridges, a classic example being 9mmP, but not to much higher capacity rifle numbers employing vastly slower burning powders. Yet, GRT and QuickLOAD apparently confirm this view - reduce COAL and pressures rise, so charges must be reduced. Whilst this is correct where the COAL change reflects the actual chamber and the bullet's relationship to the lands to keep it at them or just 'out', it overstates pressures when the cartridge is loaded shorter than is optimal for the chamber. Take popular short-action numbers like 308 Win, 260 Rem and suchlike. The shooter wants to single-load long heavy bullets at the optimal COAL and has his gunsmith chamber the barrel accordingly. Say the bullet seated optimally for the chamber gives a COAL of 3-inches or even a tad more. No issue, and assisted by GRT/QuickLOAD, the shooter works up heavy but safe charges of a suitable powder on the range taking note of actual MVs and the appearance or otherwise of pressure signs. However, the user also wants magazine operation for a different application and this restricts the COAL to 2.8-inches or even a little less in order to obtain reliable feed. The chamber is still the same but bullets are now making a 200+ thou' jump to the rifling instead of 15 or 20. GRT/QL now show pressures have increased massively at the new COAL. But have they? I'd argue not - in fact in some instances they can reduce. As peak chamber pressure is normally produced after the bullet has left the case (in fact has travelled an inch or two down the rifled section), the original increased effective chamber volume (from the long throat/leade) still applies and so do the internal ballistics. Others argue that this isn't the case as increasing fill-ratio in itself increases pressure. (Bullet companies such as Nosler say otherwise though and Nosler provides maximum charges in some combinations that run at 110-115% fill-ratios, ie heavily compressed, more so than I'd ever be happy with.) I'm assuming in these hypothetical cases, that the same powder is suitable and charges can be physically accommodated at all COALs, whilst in practice seating bullets deeper often produces excessive charge compression requiring a charge weight reduction.

The situation I outline (bullet seated deeper than optimal for the chamber form) and thereby reducing pressures / MVs is very common in practice of course, whether knowingly or otherwise. An example of the former situation is 223 in custom AR-15 XTC competition rifles whose chambers are throated for and incorporate a longer / gentler leade angle to suit the 80gn SMK or similar bullet seated out to 2.550-inch or so COAL for single-loading, but shorter/blunter 68-77gn bullets are seated to 2.25/6-inches magazine length for the short-distance rapid fire stages. Assuming the latter combinations would physically accept heavier charges than those provided for standard 223 Rem loads in a short-freebore SAAMI compliant chamber, I'd argue that they could be safely employed in the long-freebore chamber. Another, even more prevalent condition, is where for whatever reasons, factory rifle manufacturers chamber their products with way longer freebores than those in the SAAMI chamber spec. Some years back, it was regularly said in Accurate Shooter Forum posts that out of the box Remington 700s in 308 Win were so long-throated that the chambers were about ideal for the longish Berger 185gn Juggernaut seated shallow.

Many years ago (1980s), Viht's loading data pamphlet (a single large sheet with multiple folds like you'd find in contemporary road maps sold in filling stations) had a little section and table on the effects of bullet seating depth on MVs/pressure. It took a standard Lapua 7.62 Nato factory loading and seated the bullet progressively deeper, thereby reducing the available case volume, in IIRC 30-thou' steps. The first three deeper seatings had no effect on either measured chamber pressure or MV; the final deepest setting saw a slightly increased MV accompanied by a small PMax reduction. The hypothesis often given for this phenomenon is that a very long bullet jump before hitting the lands gives the bullet 'a run at them' thereby reducing friction / resistance to further movement compared to that when seated at the lands or just out.
 

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