New at reloading need opinion

[dellet]

No it means I took 25cm brass and ran it thru the resizer. Bad idea I'm learning.
Kids down so I can get some measurements.
Alpha brass
Neck
Brass that I have not touched. .283
unfired but loaded. .286
Fired .290
Yes I can place a bullet into a fired neck takes a little pressure to but not much.

Yes I have a Go gauge I used scotch tape for the No go.

I think you might have stumbled on to the problem, something sucks.

Leaning toward brass, but it could be the measuring device, might be the operator.

.283 & .286 make sense a.003” interference is not un common.

.286” less .257” leaves brass .0145” thick. A bit much for my taste but no big deal.

The problem is .290” fired and any tension at all from the bullet slipping in. You have .002” clearance. This assuming the inside diameter is consistent.

There is a phenomenon known as a donut that form inside the neck and shoulder junction. This can cause the bullet to be pinched in the case and cause a pressure spike.
You might be able to feel when the bullet hits this tight spot. The bullets you are using will be ideal for this, they will possibly ratchet down and basically click every time a grove passes the tight spot. I think if you solve why .002” of clearance requires any force other than gravity to drop the bullet into the case, you might be able to move forward.

Double check your numbers, but I would certainly give this some attention.

I would add that comparing case capacity of the hornady and Alpha brass could provide another clue.

 

[bozo699]

I think you might have stumbled on to the problem, something sucks.

Leaning toward brass, but it could be the measuring device, might be the operator.

.283 & .286 make sense a.003” interference is not un common.

.286” less .257” leaves brass .0145” thick. A bit much for my taste but no big deal.

The problem is .290” fired and any tension at all from the bullet slipping in. You have .002” clearance. This assuming the inside diameter is consistent.

There is a phenomenon known as a donut that form inside the neck and shoulder junction. This can cause the bullet to be pinched in the case and cause a pressure spike.
You might be able to feel when the bullet hits this tight spot. The bullets you are using will be ideal for this, they will possibly ratchet down and basically click every time a grove passes the tight spot. I think if you solve why .002” of clearance requires any force other than gravity to drop the bullet into the case, you might be able to move forward.

Double check your numbers, but I would certainly give this some attention.

I would add that comparing case capacity of the hornady and Alpha brass could provide another clue.

Unless I read it wrong this happened with new brass which wouldn’t have a donut however you still may be onto it as he may be seating the base below the neck shoulder junction, the bullet may have a large pressure ring which could reduce that .002 clearance on its exit. @std7mag do those bullets have a pressure ring?
Wayne

 

[dellet]

Unless I read it wrong this happened with new brass which wouldn’t have a donut however you still may be onto it as he may be seating the base below the neck shoulder junction, the bullet may have a large pressure ring which could reduce that .002 clearance on its exit. @std7mag do those bullets have a pressure ring?
Wayne

I think the bullet he’s using is just over 1.5” long. If that’s correct, he has about 3/8” of bullet below the base of the neck

Edit to add

Same company, different cartridge, same problem

Post in thread 'Case issue?'

Monday at 7:57 AM

It appears, to me, that when I run the mandrel into the neck it distorts the shoulder/body intersection, that with a tight chamber maybe giving me issues

That sounds to me like you're necks are too clean and/or just not slippery enough, and/or. . . if you're annealing, they're being over annealed.

• Straightshooter1

• 

 

[Wild Bill IV]

That’s not exactly true, and often completely false.
Most manufacturers include relief grooves to reduce bearing surface to less than cup and core. You need to look at the bullet he’s having problems with.

Don’t mistake starting pressure with peak.

His other load that people seem to be glossing over was 38.5 of H 4350. That load had heavy bolt lift with a mid range load.

Honestly there is just not enough information available because @edix does not have the proper tools to provide it yet. It’s just way to early to blame high pressure early on copper alloy vs cup and core.

I totally agree!!!

I went to the XXL reloading website and found around 60-75 different powders for the 133 Elite Hunters!!! Found 2 Hammar load data (90gr and 95 grain, no 127 gr)!!! N555 seems to fall off the cliff!!! Too slow, too low on pressure for 97% Fill, 100% Burn in 23.6" Barrel at MAX LOAD!!!!! N550 was better!!! The best "THUMBS UP" powder was Reloader16!!!!

I beginning to think the OP is in an over pressure situation!! XXL for the 133 Elite Hunter shows a max load of N555 at 39.7grs, 97%Fill, 44,701psi, 2421f/s, 100%Burn in 23.6" Barrel!!!! He is now thinking about moving to the Elite Hunters or ELDs!!!! There is a lot more reloading data for the Berger and Hornady Bullets!!!

Until he gets the Bump Comparator, we will not know for sure if the problem is a headspace issue, or powder charge, or both!!!

Thank you dellet!!!!!!!

EDIT PS!!
I'm on this site to help with my knowledge and personal experiences!!!
I can no long shoot a high powder (rifles, shotguns, pistols)!!!
I have Macular Degeneration in my scope and aiming eye!!!
Caught it in time (wet vs dry swelling behind the retina)!!
I do not want a detached retina!!!
Until I get the approval from my eye surgeon, I can not shoot!!!
Stopped shooting September 2024!!!
I miss it so bad!!!!
But let me remind forum members, I have learned a lot from the experts!!!
But, TAKE ALL ADVICE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT!!!
Certain Members (most) can be trusted!!!

BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wild Bill IV]

I think you might have stumbled on to the problem, something sucks.

Leaning toward brass, but it could be the measuring device, might be the operator.

.283 & .286 make sense a.003” interference is not un common.

.286” less .257” leaves brass .0145” thick. A bit much for my taste but no big deal.

The problem is .290” fired and any tension at all from the bullet slipping in. You have .002” clearance. This assuming the inside diameter is consistent.

There is a phenomenon known as a donut that form inside the neck and shoulder junction. This can cause the bullet to be pinched in the case and cause a pressure spike.
You might be able to feel when the bullet hits this tight spot. The bullets you are using will be ideal for this, they will possibly ratchet down and basically click every time a grove passes the tight spot. I think if you solve why .002” of clearance requires any force other than gravity to drop the bullet into the case, you might be able to move forward.

Double check your numbers, but I would certainly give this some attention.

I would add that comparing case capacity of the hornady and Alpha brass could provide another clue.

dellet:

I understand where your philosophy is at!!!
Lets take a stroll back in time!!! This is going to blow your mind!!!!

In the old BR days of NECK SIZING ONLY, Bonanza/Forster made inside neck reamers that fit in the Forster Hand Crank Trim Lathe!!!!
The reamers were tool cut to +.0010" to +0.0015" of bullet diameter!!!!
The Once Fired, Full Fire Formed brass, with full blown out necks, were inserted into the Lathes collet (based clamped) while centering the chamfer cutter into the blown out case mouth aligning the case axis, which is also the camber axis now, with the tool axis!!!!!!
The secret to inside reaming is to never stop turning the tool and lightly forcing the cutter into the case!!! If it start binding, slowly withdraw the turning tool!!! Clear the chips from the cutter with a small paint brush!!! Start cranking and work slowly into the case again and don't stop turning the tool!!! Keep working in and out unto you have cleared the neck shoulder junction!!! Keep cranking as you withdraw!!! The cutting edges on the reamer are razor sharp!!! The cut finish is a dark, golden glossy finish!!! Not the dull white from outside turning!!!!
THE REASON TO KEEP CRANKING WHILE THE TOOL IS IN THE NECK, IS TO AVOID 6 SCORE CUTS IN THE NECK WHICH COULD LEAD TO NECK CRACKS!!!

For BR shooters, at that time, this prep work was great!!!
PLUS, YOU COULD INSIDE REAM, AND TRIM AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
But in the situation that the OP wants, it is also great!!!
Having 0.0010-0.0015" clearance is great for BR reloading Hunters!!!!
Extra neck tension is required for the near max, to max loads for hunting!!!
I've done this for Rem 700 actions in a BDL varmint special(7-08), VLS in 22-250, and a custom rifle (air gauged barrel) in 25-06!!!! All these rifles shoot less than 0.2MOA!! And all are personally tuned hunter/varmint rifles!!!! The 7-08 (160gr SGK SBT) shot a 7shot group of 0.092MOA from the bipod, squeeze bag, prone position!! Tight cloverleaf!!!!

Now, the OP has a family!!! Family comes FIRST!!
To ease your mind dellel, and cut expensive tooling for the new OP reloader, I'm offering assistance for the OP to send me 10 fired, (not resized) cases!!! I'll record the before and after measures!!! Then send the cases back to the OP!!! I'LL GUARANTEE THAT THOSE 10 CASES WILL BE HIS FAVORITES!!!!

Plus, with minimal neck clearance, the OP doesn't need to anneal the neck shoulder region!!! Another cost saver for the new reloader with family!!!!

dellet:
This will hopefully satisfy one of the issue you are worried about!!!
By the way, isn't bumping with FL dies a modern day verses of modification of BR Neck Size only until it can no longer chamber, where the BR shooter bumped the shoulder back a bit with FL dies?????????????????????

 

[bozo699]

I think the bullet he’s using is just over 1.5” long. If that’s correct, he has about 3/8” of bullet below the base of the neck

Edit to add

Same company, different cartridge, same problem

Post in thread 'Case issue?'

Monday at 7:57 AM

It appears, to me, that when I run the mandrel into the neck it distorts the shoulder/body intersection, that with a tight chamber maybe giving me issues

That sounds to me like you're necks are too clean and/or just not slippery enough, and/or. . . if you're annealing, they're being over annealed.

• Straightshooter1

• 

I hadn’t read this thread yet, thanks for sharing. Very similar and some common denominator’s
Wayne

 

[dellet]

dellet:

I understand where your philosophy is at!!!
Lets take a stroll back in time!!! This is going to blow your mind!!!!

In the old BR days of NECK SIZING ONLY, Bonanza/Forster made inside neck reamers that fit in the Forster Hand Crank Trim Lathe!!!!
The reamers were tool cut to +.0010" to +0.0015" of bullet diameter!!!!
The Once Fired, Full Fire Formed brass, with full blown out necks, were inserted into the Lathes collet (based clamped) while centering the chamfer cutter into the blown out case mouth aligning the case axis, which is also the camber axis now, with the tool axis!!!!!!
The secret to inside reaming is to never stop turning the tool and lightly forcing the cutter into the case!!! If it start binding, slowly withdraw the turning tool!!! Clear the chips from the cutter with a small paint brush!!! Start cranking and work slowly into the case again and don't stop turning the tool!!! Keep working in and out unto you have cleared the neck shoulder junction!!! Keep cranking as you withdraw!!! The cutting edges on the reamer are razor sharp!!! The cut finish is a dark, golden glossy finish!!! Not the dull white from outside turning!!!!
THE REASON TO KEEP CRANKING WHILE THE TOOL IS IN THE NECK, IS TO AVOID 6 SCORE CUTS IN THE NECK WHICH COULD LEAD TO NECK CRACKS!!!

For BR shooters, at that time, this prep work was great!!!
PLUS, YOU COULD INSIDE REAM, AND TRIM AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
But in the situation that the OP wants, it is also great!!!
Having 0.0010-0.0015" clearance is great for BR reloading Hunters!!!!
Extra neck tension is required for the near max, to max loads for hunting!!!
I've done this for Rem 700 actions in a BDL varmint special(7-08), VLS in 22-250, and a custom rifle (air gauged barrel) in 25-06!!!! All these rifles shoot less than 0.2MOA!! And all are personally tuned hunter/varmint rifles!!!! The 7-08 (160gr SGK SBT) shot a 7shot group of 0.092MOA from the bipod, squeeze bag, prone position!! Tight cloverleaf!!!!

Now, the OP has a family!!! Family comes FIRST!!
To ease your mind dellel, and cut expensive tooling for the new OP reloader, I'm offering assistance for the OP to send me 10 fired, (not resized) cases!!! I'll record the before and after measures!!! Then send the cases back to the OP!!! I'LL GUARANTEE THAT THOSE 10 CASES WILL BE HIS FAVORITES!!!!

Plus, with minimal neck clearance, the OP doesn't need to anneal the neck shoulder region!!! Another cost saver for the new reloader with family!!!!

dellet:
This will hopefully satisfy one of the issue you are worried about!!!
By the way, isn't bumping with FL dies a modern day verses of modification of BR Neck Size only until it can no longer chamber, where the BR shooter bumped the shoulder back a bit with FL dies?????????????????????

Maybe really go back in time for benchrest when neck tension and donuts didnt matter because the bullets were seated in the barrel and the charged case was inserted behind.

@edix doesnt need a bunch of fancy tools right now, he needs working knowledge and problem solving skills. The guys that have been in touch already will be able to walk him through and find the problem. For us on the keyboard it’s all about speculation.

What edic really needs is a good imagination and a box to think outside of. He has all he needs to probably solve this issue if it’s the neck. A decent caliper will probably long enough to measure the bottom of the neck diameter, accurate enough to indicate the difference.

Pretty sure if he sorts the fired brass he has, that he will find a number of pieces that still chamber easily and the bullet slides freely into the case past the neck. Set those aside.

Then the ones that the bullet sticks. Mark that spot on the neck. My guess is that it will be a repeateble location. Hopefully it’s in the lower portion of the neck. Size the brass up to that point. Hopefully there is enough neck to catch to of the bands. You have now removed the potential tight neck from the equation.

I think neck turning is probably in his future. Maybe just different brass. But 257”-260” pin gauges would be pretty handy about now.

It’s nice to learn the native language, it’s even better when people can over look the rocket science part of shooting and get a new guy to the range and back safely and within a budget. Even more so when a guys first post is I’m in trouble and need help. Let’s get the basics covered before the lesson in metallurgy.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Maybe really go back in time for benchrest when neck tension and donuts didnt matter because the bullets were seated in the barrel and the charged case was inserted behind.

@edix doesnt need a bunch of fancy tools right now, he needs working knowledge and problem solving skills. The guys that have been in touch already will be able to walk him through and find the problem. For us on the keyboard it’s all about speculation.

What edic really needs is a good imagination and a box to think outside of. He has all he needs to probably solve this issue if it’s the neck. A decent caliper will probably long enough to measure the bottom of the neck diameter, accurate enough to indicate the difference.

Pretty sure if he sorts the fired brass he has, that he will find a number of pieces that still chamber easily and the bullet slides freely into the case past the neck. Set those aside.

Then the ones that the bullet sticks. Mark that spot on the neck. My guess is that it will be a repeateble location. Hopefully it’s in the lower portion of the neck. Size the brass up to that point. Hopefully there is enough neck to catch to of the bands. You have now removed the potential tight neck from the equation.

I think neck turning is probably in his future. Maybe just different brass. But 257”-260” pin gauges would be pretty handy about now.

It’s nice to learn the native language, it’s even better when people can over look the rocket science part of shooting and get a new guy to the range and back safely and within a budget. Even more so when a guys first post is I’m in trouble and need help. Let’s get the basics covered before the lesson in metallurgy.

Well stated!!!
Get the basics down!! Totally agree!!
With the possible self infected doughnut issue, I could save those cases with the reamer!!! This is for later salvage purposes!!!
I really enjoyed the way back BR practice!!!
My first hand loading set was a Lyman hand tool BR kit!!!
Used a 6oz nylon tipped mallet for sizing/reaming, bullet seating, and primer removal!!! 223 Remington!!! That was mid to late 70s for this kid!!!!

 

[bozo699]

Maybe really go back in time for benchrest when neck tension and donuts didnt matter because the bullets were seated in the barrel and the charged case was inserted behind.

@edix doesnt need a bunch of fancy tools right now, he needs working knowledge and problem solving skills. The guys that have been in touch already will be able to walk him through and find the problem. For us on the keyboard it’s all about speculation.

What edic really needs is a good imagination and a box to think outside of. He has all he needs to probably solve this issue if it’s the neck. A decent caliper will probably long enough to measure the bottom of the neck diameter, accurate enough to indicate the difference.

Pretty sure if he sorts the fired brass he has, that he will find a number of pieces that still chamber easily and the bullet slides freely into the case past the neck. Set those aside.

Then the ones that the bullet sticks. Mark that spot on the neck. My guess is that it will be a repeateble location. Hopefully it’s in the lower portion of the neck. Size the brass up to that point. Hopefully there is enough neck to catch to of the bands. You have now removed the potential tight neck from the equation.

I think neck turning is probably in his future. Maybe just different brass. But 257”-260” pin gauges would be pretty handy about now.

It’s nice to learn the native language, it’s even better when people can over look the rocket science part of shooting and get a new guy to the range and back safely and within a budget. Even more so when a guys first post is I’m in trouble and need help. Let’s get the basics covered before the lesson in metallurgy.

Very well written and 100% spot on!..
Wayne

 

[dellet]

I hadn’t read this thread yet, thanks for sharing. Very similar and some common denominator’s
Wayne

It something to think about, seem like there was third thread of similar problem recently.

The real big thing tho is component swapping. We know he likely has a longer than normal bullet, seated .060” deeper than factory to get it to chamber. Until we know what the bullet length in the Hornady load, and lengths of bullets in the load data, we just really don’t have the basic info needed to help.

But not reducing charge weight and seating .100” more bullet in the case, isn’t a good place to start.

 

[bozo699]

It something to think about, seem like there was third thread of similar problem recently.

The real big thing tho is component swapping. We know he likely has a longer than normal bullet, seated .060” deeper to get it to chamber. Until we know what the bullet length in the Hornady load, and lengths of bullets in the load data, we just really don’t have the basic info needed to help.

I Agree, Braxton send him a oal tool I talked him through how to measure his neck diameter. Next I would like to talk to him on the phone as I think it’s much better than texts until he understands the lingo
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

It something to think about, seem like there was third thread of similar problem recently.

The real big thing tho is component swapping. We know he likely has a longer than normal bullet, seated .060” deeper than factory to get it to chamber. Until we know what the bullet length in the Hornady load, and lengths of bullets in the load data, we just really don’t have the basic info needed to help.

But not reducing charge weight and seating .100” more bullet in the case, isn’t a good place to start.

He has the drive so he will get it and he’s on the right forum to get the info he needs. I’m just extremely happy he realized he was over his head and asked before he had a huge problem and we have all been there at one point in time. I myself learn something new about reloading or shooting every day mostly from experienced guys on here but some on my own and some from new guys like the op of this thread
Wayne

 

[dellet]

He has the drive so he will get it and he’s on the right forum to get the info he needs. I’m just extremely happy he realized he was over his head and asked before he had a huge problem and we have all been there at one point in time. I myself learn something new about reloading or shooting every day mostly from experienced guys on here but some on my own and some from new guys like the op of this thread
Wayne

He seems to have the right stuff, didn’t he say in one of his posts he was building this rifle for his kid?


Maybe I mis understood why he could only talk about it when the kid was asleep.

 

[edix]

He seems to have the right stuff, didn’t he say in one of his posts he was building this rifle for his kid?


Maybe I mis understood why he could only talk about it when the kid was asleep.

Haha probably will be for the kid but she's 3. How ever I am quiet fancy of the 350 legend suppressed. Probably what I will have her shoot her 1st deer with. I'm sure you have all tried to do something and the little one is all up in your stuff. Its just much easier just to wait until they are a sleep.

 

[edix]

I cant remember who asked but.
Hornady 128gr ELD-X 1.421 At least the bullet i pulled.

 

[dellet]

I cant remember who asked but.
Hornady 128gr ELD-X 1.421 At least the bullet i pulled.

Vs the hammer 127 HHT at 1.505”?
Thats .085” difference in bullet length
I think you said the Hornady loaded length was 2.800” and your loaded length was 2.738”. Thats another .060” more bullet in the case. I’m going to round that up .150”, Thats huge.

To substitute bullets and use the same powder charge load data. You want the amount of bullet in the case to be the same. So your loaded length for the Hammer should have been 2.885” to use the same starting load. As long as the chamber would allow.

The pressure signs are starting make sense. That’s why I qualified your powder charge being a reasonable starting load, depending on bullet length. I would have dropped about 4 grains/10% and then worked up. Note the 4350 load was a bigger problem, hard bolt lift, another powder probably would have blown a primer or worse.

This is why loading manuals drive home, no substitutions of components.

The tight necks didn’t help. And the primer lied.

I’ll add that the 138 Atip is 1.475” and loads at 2.810 and 40 grains is low end. But with .085” more bullet in the case, dropping off a couple grains from the starting charge of 38 would have been a good idea.

 

[David Milisock]

there's your problem alpha brass

Ok lets hear it. What's the deal with Alpha brass?

 

[jelenko]

And the primer lied.

This hurts my brain.
How does that happen?

 

[bozo699]

This hurts my brain.
How does that happen?

Because people think a flat primer is an indicator of pressure!… and a rounded primer like the op’s isn’t over pressure….. hence the primer lied….. hence why I say the primer is a piss poor indicator of pressure!… if you don’t have thousands of dollars worth of sensitive equipment designed for measuring pressure you do like Vernon Speer of Speer Ammunition and use a $200 micrometer and measure the web, when you see moor than .0005 expansion you back off the charge. The majority of the time a flat primer can be an indication of pressure but sometimes a rounded primer can be over pressure and you falsely think your fine when in fact your not!
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

Ok lets hear it. What's the deal with Alpha brass?

Only one thing……. It’s not Lapua
Wayne