Mini .30 cal: 300BO vs 7.62x39 vs 300HAM’R

[Oso]

A periodic discussion of what is best 30 cal. cartridge covering such aspects as:
> chambered in AR15 and potentially bolt rifle
> good for hunting mid-sized game (pigs & deer)
> mild recoil / youth friendly
> works well from 8” - 18” barrels

Here’s a fun video comparing the three cartridges effect on different targets. Enjoy

 

[ebb]

I've been talking with this guy from Texas and he has convinced me its the 300HAM'R. I think he's right!!!!

 

[Ace Quackhunter]

I hunt whitetail deer with a 7.62 X 39 built on a Mexican Mauser action with a 20" barrel. I have use 125 Nosler Ballistic Tips & 135 Hornady Flex Tips both have worked great for under 200 yards.

 

[ebb]

I've read where many 7.62-39 rifles were made on Carcano actions, they claim it is the perfect use for a Carcano. They may be right because I can think of no other good use for one.

 

[rockhound78]

I would think the testing in the ballistic gel would have been more informative if the same bullet was used in all three cartridges.

 

[Oso]

Like many YouTube reviews the comparisons are based on factory ammo, which are sometimes an imperfect comparison. Unfortunately, Banana Balistics isn’t Johnny’s Reloading Bench where the focus is on load development.

Any of these cartridges are more than adequate to kill mid-sized game as well as pull double duty for self defense. All of these cartridges benefit from hand loading with their performance further improved when loaded for a bolt rifle.

 

[dellet]

Well at least I learned what cartridge is use in an urban hog hunt.

Like many YouTube reviews the comparisons are based on factory ammo, which are sometimes an imperfect comparison. Unfortunately, Banana Balistics isn’t Johnny’s Reloading Bench where the focus is on load development.

Any of these cartridges are more than adequate to kill mid-sized game as well as pull double duty for self defense. All of these cartridges benefit from hand loading with their performance further improved when loaded for a bolt rifle.

he could have at least mentioned velocities.

Example the 300 BLK vs 7.62x39 using the same barrel lengths, velocity become a none issue. There really isn’t much difference. It comes down to bullet choice.

At least in the gel test the 300 BLK and 300 Ham’r I think used the same bullet. The bullet performance was almost exactly the same for expansion and intitial entertainment dump. The big question is the 300 Ham’r, bullet base did continue deeper penetration, the problem is weight and velocity makes that extra wound channel almost pointless. It was less stopping power than a 32 acp. It did probably at least give an exit hole for better tracking, maybe fast blood loss. But the elephant in the room is energy dump. The Blackout dumped 100 percent, while the Ham’r left some on the table.

Then there is the problem of bullets tumbling after exiting what ever media the passes through before hitting steel. Had that plate been another 6” back from the wood, both the 7.62x39 and the 300 Ham’r would have been useless. The 300 BLk was the only bullet still flying point first. Again not so much about velocity, but bullet choice.

Kind of a fun video for advice if you want to go on an urban hog hunt, but otherwise very misleading for cartridge comparison. But he did get my click, that’s what really matters.

 

[Oso]

Dellet - I was wondering when you might bite

This is the load data for ammo he used in the tested, except the gel block which were specialty rounds. Banana Ballistics had included this in the “Description” drop down on the video.
300 Blackout: Magtech 123 grain FMJ 2,176 fps - 1,304 ft/lbs
7.62x39: Winchester 123 gr FMJ 2,432 fps - 1,616 ft/lbs
300 H: Wilson Combat 125 gr FMJ. 2,495 fps - 1,728 ft/lbs

What are your thoughts on why the 300BO didn’t tumble whereas the 7.62x39 and 300HAM’R did? I am going to make a logic jump and say faster Twist Rate of 300BO kept bullet stable after initial impact on the wood block.
300BO (1:7.5 ) compared to 7.62x39 (1:10) and 300HAMR (1:13 or 1:15)

 

[dellet]

I tried hard to ignore it, just got the better of me.

It’s a hard call, could be a simple as the blackout was the only one that didn’t hit a knot in the wood.

Realistically, either a tougher jacket, or lower velocity saved the Blackout. I go back to my first hard lesson in ballistics and bullet design. Had a 22 revolver as a kid with 22LR and Magnum cylinders. Out in the dumping grounds shooting a car door, the 22LR poked a hole every time. The magnum just made a big dent. It’s not always speed, bullet design for the task at hand is what matters.

The gel test you start to see what happens when a bullet is out of its window. Same bullet, I think, higher impact velocities. The petals in a fracturing bullet won’t stay on any longer when impacting faster. Generally quite the opposite. Petals come of sooner, less penetration. Then you have a tiny slug continue on. I’m not sure it would have the energy of even a 32 ACP now that I think about it. Probably more like a 32 S&W. 60 or 70 grains at less than 500 fps. I’ve tested a 32 S&W in gel, it was over 30” of penetration. Not enough speed or bullet to develop friction. Kind of like pushing your finger into a bucket of sand, works pretty good. Trying to punch it into the sand, breaks the finger. Even if it does exit, shooting a hog or anything else with some fat, that tiny hole will plug up. It’s that initial energy dump that gives you DRT. So the Ham’r won’t really perform any better on impact than the Blackout, but that extra velocity will extend the range easily 100 yards if not closer to 200.

It would have been real interesting to see the Barnes blacktip used. This is probably one of the best “see how it works videos” ever made.

If you look at Ham’r velocity with rounds using the Blacktip, they are anemic for the cartridge. I haven’t found any over 2600 fps. There is a reason for that. At impact around 2550 fps, the petals start to come off on impact. The bullet is worthless outside its velocity window. I’ve pushed that bullet to 2800fps in a 24” Blackout. It’s don’t shoot anything inside 200 yards and your fine. Or could probably shoot through 15” of pine still drop a hog, since it’s a barrier blind bullet.

I get the video was more about fun, but some poor sap is going to think he can shoot through trees with a 300 Ham’r and one poor animal will wonder around gut shot for a few weeks before it dies. Thanks to the jackass that did the video.

Understanding bullet construction and use shows that video to be kind of a joke at best. I didn’t read the comments or explanations, so maybe I’m off base. But think about all the others that did the same. Passed through the wood and still had the power to tear through steel sideways.

And trying to pass off the Ham’r as a mini 308, only about 600 fps difference with a 125 grain bullet. Never mind you can’t even really shoot anything over 150 grains. Another shill looking for free shit from manufactures. Hard to get an honest review that way. Look at the number of people whose only contribution to the forum here is a link to their latest video. Everything they get sent is awesome. best ever. Insert that barfing emoji here.

 

[Oso]

I believe it’s the first time that Banana Ballistics has discussed or created a videos of the 300HAM’R. The mini 308 moniker was definitely off base.

Barnes TAC-TX (black tip) is hands down my favorite hunting bullet for the 300BO. Unfortunately, between the longer case length of the 300HAM’R and the long angular profile of the Barnes Black Tip there just isn’t enough space room in standard AR15 magazine to load it. Maybe it’s time to order one of the Brenton USA Long-Load mags with 2.315” mag length (10 rnd capacity) for $35. In case anyone is interest:
https://www.brentonusa.com/product/brenton-usa-magazines/

Thanks for the info on how Black Tip performs at higher velocity. That’s disappointing, but it makes sense since it was designed specifically for 300BO with full expansion all way down to 1,800fps. The Barnes TSX / TTSX was designed for higher velocities in .308. I wonder how it expands at the lower end of velocity range (2,500-2,600 fps). As I recall the TTSX was tested in 300HAM’R but ran into problems with magazine length restrictions in AR15. Wilson Combat bought Lehigh Defense and now has bullets focused on HAMR, including a Max Expansion bullet, which is similar to Barnes TSX.

As we’ve discussed over past few years, if you are a reloaded then you can close the performance gap between 300BO and 300HAM’R. However, if buying factory ammo then the 300HAM’R will have the higher velocity. The longer case length of the HAM’R eliminates the large jump in the 300BO, which favors the HAM’R with lighter bullets (90gr to 130gr). Certain bullet profiles may be too long for use with HAM’R while staying within standard mag length.

 

[dellet]

The problem isn’t the cartridge, it’s the hype. I’m a big fan of the Blackout, but I go to great lengths to make sure I don’t over sell. To me it’s a Shooters/ woodsman cartridge, if you can’t shoot, track, place the shots in poor conditions, know your game and the land, don’t hunt with it. Double that if you shoot subs. I know a few guys who regularly take 3-500 pound hogs and sizable Red Deer at over 400 yards with subs. Most people I tell to stick to white tail under 200 yards with supers. It’s not the cartridge. You can’t shoot an elk in the butt and turn the heart and lungs to jelly, but that’s what more and more people expect. I’m a bow hunter at heart, shot placement is everything.

Look at the ballistic capability 300 Ham’r vs Blackout. More or less a 200 fps advantage goes to the Ham’r. But what is the actual gain? Run the bullet and velocity through your calculator and see where velocity has dropped to Blackout muzzle velocity, the where terminal velocity would still deliver 1000 pounds. Ham’r has about 75 yard advantage at bullet weights of 110/125. Not really a game changer, but substantial.

But here’s why I’m a heavy bullet fan. With 150 grain bullets the velocity advantage basically disappears, less than 100 fps. A Hornady 150 sst at 2200 fps muzzle velocity will have 1000 pounds at 250 yards. It will still have an easily manageable arc.

When you look at the numbers for 300 Ham’r 110 grain @ 2600, 125 @ 2400 150 @ 2200 muzzle energy is basically the same, roughy within 25 pounds, advantage 110 grain. By 50 yards they equalize, by 100 yards the advantage has flipped, by 200 yards the 110 and 125 grain bullets have dropped below 1000 pounds. These are ballistics for 110 vmax, 125 sst, 150 sst.

With a 200 yard zero for all bullets the arc of trajectory difference is about an inch or half MOA.

This is why I campaigned heavily for a 150 grain Blackout specific bullet, when everyone else thought it was crazy. 300 Ham’r performance, 10 years before Wilson started working on the project. What the Ham’r did was offer 150 grain bullet performance with 110-125 grain bullets. Something the Blackout can’t do.

This is why muzzle velocity and energy can be very misleading. 110 grains, 2600 fps gets a big write up and wows from cheering fans, 150 grain at 2200 puts people to sleep.

 

[Oso]

Just so we are clear - you are the reason that I continue to own a small collection of 300BO

Admittedly, my mindset has been that velocity kills. I don’t need hot rods, but I am more comfortable north of 2,000fps. I guess part of my hesitation around heavies/subsonics is concern around decreased accuracy. Factory subsonic ammo with 1”-2” groups at 50 yards just didn’t meet my expectations so I didn’t spend much effort doing load development for subsonics.

What are your 300BO bullet recommendations for 150gr and heavier?
150gr Speers Gold Dot
175gr SMK

 

[dellet]

It’s a two or three fold equation. Speed, weight, BC. I tested the 86 grain Maker bullet up to 3200 fps in a 1/10 24” barrel. That’s flat out rocking in a 300 Blackout. Not sure if you can get there with the same weight 223. The difference is the 223 at 2800 will make it to the target at 1000 yards. The 85 grain Maker bullet, best call an Uber to get to the 1000 yard mark.

So first question on bullet choice is what’s the purpose?
Second is barrel length?
Third twist twist rate?

Another example( blackout questions are never straight answers). Lehigh CQB bullets, unless they’ve changed design, are worthless for inside self defense. You get 2850 fps in a 16” barrel, they are explosive on impact and do a massive energy dump. They work well down to 2350 fps. Making them useless past 100 yards and questionable shot from anything 8” or less in barrel length since muzzle velocity is about 2400 at best. Who wants a close quarter combat rifle with a 24” barrel suppressor combination? But a 6” or even 8” renders the bullet useless. Here I would use the 85 grain Maker expands down to something like 1500 fps or less and hold together at a much higher RPM. Some of the Lehigh’s tend to open in flight is a 1/5. Makers are assumed to be shot in a 1/5.

Thats just an example of the thought I try to put into bullet selection.

The two you mentioned 150 gold dot, 175 SMK, are probably two of my favorite.
The gold dot is any easy 2200 fps bullet in a 16” barrel and about 1900 in an 8”(from memory) easy to tune, double caliber expansion down below 1500 fps, 1/2 MOA even if you don’t do your part, so great even for targets. Hunting and personal defense a good choice, but not barrier blind and there’s times shooting through a wall or glass is a pretty good idea.

175 SMK. 16” barrel 1000-2000 fps. Flys extremely well through the transonic range. Hard to beat as a target bullet and does well past 600 yards. I f you play any of the run and gun games, it easily exceeds 320 for major power factor. Easy to find on the shelves, very forgiving to load with a long jump. Certainly not a first choice for anything other than paper or steel, but it hold together in any twist and speed between 5-10.

110 varmageddon. About 2700 fps in a 24” barrel. 2200 in an 8”. Pushed hard in a 1/5 it just blows up right after impact, maybe even in fight over 300,000 rpm in a hot barrel.
The V max seems to hold up better, but maybe a little harder to tune.

Most any bullet that works well in a 30-30. Just watch the range. Most any will expand down to 1600 fps. The Hornady FTX are good for about 175 yards from a 16” barrel, around 1950-2000 MV. Just watch the COL, they can’t be loaded to mag length. 24” barrel add a couple hundred fps and extend the useful range for hunting.

For targets the Berger 115 and 150 flat base, 155 full bore Palma bullet.

A boat tail is a complete waste of case capacity in a velocity challenged cartridge, so I try to stay away. But then again I developed a load for the old G9 155 grain bullets. Brass solids that fit a standard magazine, they were something like 18-1900 fps in a 10” barrel. First round hits on half size steel silhouettes out to 800 yards.

I prefer the Maker bullets over the Lehigh. I’ve just had more of the Lehigh come apart in flight. But in context, I have a 24” 1/6. That stresses a lot of bullets. Honestly tho I’ve had more bullets fail in an 8” 1/5 than the 24” 1/6. Twist rate matters so much more than velocity. In a 1/5 you pass 300,000 rpm at 2100 fps. Thats easy with a 110 in an 8” barrel. A 1/6 doesn’t hit 300,000 until 2500 fps.

This what makes the Blackout interesting. Change the barrel length or twist rate and you have a brand new cartridge with brand new problems to solve. But it also creates a lot of confusion and headaches because some one takes my data for a 24” 1/10 and tries it in a 8” 1/5 and can’t figure out why the bullets can’t hit a sheet of plywood at 10 paces, when I claim sub 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Then there’s that subsonic problem. Lightest bullet to cycle an 8” AR with a standard buffer and BCG, 110, heaviest 265 grains. Bolt action or single shot lightest bullet 65 grains. My approach is loading for completely different cartridges. If I use a 125 SMK subsonic in an AR, then load data is in a completely different book than when the same bullet is shot as a super in the same rifle. They require completely different approaches.

A really long winded way of saying, your question is too broad. Sorry about that, but by now you’ve heard most of this already. I just don’t see that much flexibility in either of the other two cartridges.

Maybe talk about a 220 SMK at 1600 fps?

 

[StumpGrinder]

I hunt whitetail deer with a 7.62 X 39 built on a Mexican Mauser action with a 20" barrel. I have use 125 Nosler Ballistic Tips & 135 Hornady Flex Tips both have worked great for under 200 yards.

I also hunt with the 7.62x39. In an AR and a Howa Mini, I can handload it to do anything these others can do. With the possible exception being subs. However if I really wanted to hunt with subs, which I don't! I have a 458 SOCOM that was designed for that.

 

[StumpGrinder]

It’s a two or three fold equation. Speed, weight, BC. I tested the 86 grain Maker bullet up to 3200 fps in a 1/10 24” barrel. That’s flat out rocking in a 300 Blackout. Not sure if you can get there with the same weight 223. The difference is the 223 at 2800 will make it to the target at 1000 yards. The 85 grain Maker bullet, best call an Uber to get to the 1000 yard mark.

So first question on bullet choice is what’s the purpose?
Second is barrel length?
Third twist twist rate?

Another example( blackout questions are never straight answers). Lehigh CQB bullets, unless they’ve changed design, are worthless for inside self defense. You get 2850 fps in a 16” barrel, they are explosive on impact and do a massive energy dump. They work well down to 2350 fps. Making them useless past 100 yards and questionable shot from anything 8” or less in barrel length since muzzle velocity is about 2400 at best. Who wants a close quarter combat rifle with a 24” barrel suppressor combination? But a 6” or even 8” renders the bullet useless. Here I would use the 85 grain Maker expands down to something like 1500 fps or less and hold together at a much higher RPM. Some of the Lehigh’s tend to open in flight is a 1/5. Makers are assumed to be shot in a 1/5.

Thats just an example of the thought I try to put into bullet selection.

The two you mentioned 150 gold dot, 175 SMK, are probably two of my favorite.
The gold dot is any easy 2200 fps bullet in a 16” barrel and about 1900 in an 8”(from memory) easy to tune, double caliber expansion down below 1500 fps, 1/2 MOA even if you don’t do your part, so great even for targets. Hunting and personal defense a good choice, but not barrier blind and there’s times shooting through a wall or glass is a pretty good idea.

175 SMK. 16” barrel 1000-2000 fps. Flys extremely well through the transonic range. Hard to beat as a target bullet and does well past 600 yards. I f you play any of the run and gun games, it easily exceeds 320 for major power factor. Easy to find on the shelves, very forgiving to load with a long jump. Certainly not a first choice for anything other than paper or steel, but it hold together in any twist and speed between 5-10.

110 varmageddon. About 2700 fps in a 24” barrel. 2200 in an 8”. Pushed hard in a 1/5 it just blows up right after impact, maybe even in fight over 300,000 rpm in a hot barrel.
The V max seems to hold up better, but maybe a little harder to tune.

Most any bullet that works well in a 30-30. Just watch the range. Most any will expand down to 1600 fps. The Hornady FTX are good for about 175 yards from a 16” barrel, around 1950-2000 MV. Just watch the COL, they can’t be loaded to mag length. 24” barrel add a couple hundred fps and extend the useful range for hunting.

For targets the Berger 115 and 150 flat base, 155 full bore Palma bullet.

A boat tail is a complete waste of case capacity in a velocity challenged cartridge, so I try to stay away. But then again I developed a load for the old G9 155 grain bullets. Brass solids that fit a standard magazine, they were something like 18-1900 fps in a 10” barrel. First round hits on half size steel silhouettes out to 800 yards.

I prefer the Maker bullets over the Lehigh. I’ve just had more of the Lehigh come apart in flight. But in context, I have a 24” 1/6. That stresses a lot of bullets. Honestly tho I’ve had more bullets fail in an 8” 1/5 than the 24” 1/6. Twist rate matters so much more than velocity. In a 1/5 you pass 300,000 rpm at 2100 fps. Thats easy with a 110 in an 8” barrel. A 1/6 doesn’t hit 300,000 until 2500 fps.

This what makes the Blackout interesting. Change the barrel length or twist rate and you have a brand new cartridge with brand new problems to solve. But it also creates a lot of confusion and headaches because some one takes my data for a 24” 1/10 and tries it in a 8” 1/5 and can’t figure out why the bullets can’t hit a sheet of plywood at 10 paces, when I claim sub 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Then there’s that subsonic problem. Lightest bullet to cycle an 8” AR with a standard buffer and BCG, 110, heaviest 265 grains. Bolt action or single shot lightest bullet 65 grains. My approach is loading for completely different cartridges. If I use a 125 SMK subsonic in an AR, then load data is in a completely different book than when the same bullet is shot as a super in the same rifle. They require completely different approaches.

A really long winded way of saying, your question is too broad. Sorry about that, but by now you’ve heard most of this already. I just don’t see that much flexibility in either of the other two cartridges.

Maybe talk about a 220 SMK at 1600 fps?

It looks to me like what your saying is, no one bullet or caliber combination works well for both hunting and home defense. And I agree and there is no need to try! Develop your hunting loads and put them aside for hunting then develop your home defense loads to keep loaded up at home. Have dedicated mags for each and mark them. I personally would not use any of the AR calibers for home defense, I have hand guns and shot guns for that.

 

[dellet]

It looks to me like what your saying is, no one bullet or caliber combination works well for both hunting and home defense. And I agree and there is no need to try! Develop your hunting loads and put them aside for hunting then develop your home defense loads to keep loaded up at home. Have dedicated mags for each and mark them. I personally would not use any of the AR calibers for home defense, I have hand guns and shot guns for that.

What I’m saying is make sure the bullet is up to the intended purpose. There are plenty of bullets that cross over between hunting and self defense, or hunting and target.

But consider the famous FBI gel test specification. 12-18” of penetration, load ammo and use a bullet that won’t exit a human. Use that ammo on an elk, moose or large hog and you won’t even reach the vitals, but you’re probably fine on antelope and deer.

The Barnes Tac TX 110 grain bullet is possibly the most successfully used hunting bullet for 300 Blackout. It’s not a hunting bullet. Shoot a large bear with it and you’ll have the opportunity to go full on Davy Crockett and fight a bear with your knife. It just doesn’t have the penetration needed by design. Exit wounds on deer are almost a given.

TAC means Tactical. Designed to shoot people through barriers, and not over penetrate on humans. Humans are thin skinned and relatively short distance to the vitals. Honestly much easier to kill than your average 100 pound attack dog or white tail. Add in that most tactical or military rounds aren’t even ment to kill. Only take a man out of the fight, any hit is fine. Humans need to be on some pretty stiff narcotics to run 200 yards after a bullet has passed through both lungs and the heart. Deer seem to do it about 70% of the time. Why do law enforcement handgun bullets need to meet FBI standards, but sniper bullets don’t, mostly Sierra Match Kings.

There are basically 4 types of bullet.
Pointy ones that will pass through just about any material and leave a single caliber hole where ever they go.
Expanding ones that use blunt force double diameter flat surfaces to rip and shred on the way through.
Expanding petal design that open up and cut a triple diameter propeller path.
Fracturing that dump all their energy fast and send shrapnel through tissue.

The game is all about dumped energy causing tissue damage and blood loss. A bullet that passes through completely has left energy on the table. Shooting through fat is different than shooting through a denim jacket.

The 300 Blackout developed a reputation as a poor choice for hunting, when the fact of the matter it was hunters making poor choices. Either in bullet selection or shot placement. This was complicated by the trend of the newest generation of hunter that seem to only be interested in blowing bigger holes from farther distances. It’s the wrong cartridge for that.

Hunting subsonic further complicates the equation. If you can’t or won’t close the distance on your target, can’t hit a quarter at 50 yards, don’t know your games anatomy and can’t or won’t learn to track, maybe consider a CheyTac cartridge.

The 300 H’mr and 7.62x39 really aren’t that much different. If 200 pounds of energy is going to sway your hunting cartridge decisions over bullet choice and shot placement, I don’t think you’ve (people in general, not you specific) taken a critical look the ballistic capability of the available bullets. And really it’s ok to make a cartridge choice based on the tried and true scientific methodology of “I like it better because it has a cool name” as long as you understand its capability and use it within those limits.

Just trying to get people to think before they shoot.

 

[StumpGrinder]

What I’m saying is make sure the bullet is up to the intended purpose. There are plenty of bullets that cross over between hunting and self defense, or hunting and target.

But consider the famous FBI gel test specification. 12-18” of penetration, load ammo and use a bullet that won’t exit a human. Use that ammo on an elk, moose or large hog and you won’t even reach the vitals, but you’re probably fine on antelope and deer.

The Barnes Tac TX 110 grain bullet is possibly the most successfully used hunting bullet for 300 Blackout. It’s not a hunting bullet. Shoot a large bear with it and you’ll have the opportunity to go full on Davy Crockett and fight a bear with your knife. It just doesn’t have the penetration needed by design. Exit wounds on deer are almost a given.

TAC means Tactical. Designed to shoot people through barriers, and not over penetrate on humans. Humans are thin skinned and relatively short distance to the vitals. Honestly much easier to kill than your average 100 pound attack dog or white tail. Add in that most tactical or military rounds aren’t even ment to kill. Only take a man out of the fight, any hit is fine. Humans need to be on some pretty stiff narcotics to run 200 yards after a bullet has passed through both lungs and the heart. Deer seem to do it about 70% of the time. Why do law enforcement handgun bullets need to meet FBI standards, but sniper bullets don’t, mostly Sierra Match Kings.

There are basically 4 types of bullet.
Pointy ones that will pass through just about any material and leave a single caliber hole where ever they go.
Expanding ones that use blunt force double diameter flat surfaces to rip and shred on the way through.
Expanding petal design that open up and cut a triple diameter propeller path.
Fracturing that dump all their energy fast and send shrapnel through tissue.

The game is all about dumped energy causing tissue damage and blood loss. A bullet that passes through completely has left energy on the table. Shooting through fat is different than shooting through a denim jacket.

The 300 Blackout developed a reputation as a poor choice for hunting, when the fact of the matter it was hunters making poor choices. Either in bullet selection or shot placement. This was complicated by the trend of the newest generation of hunter that seem to only be interested in blowing bigger holes from farther distances. It’s the wrong cartridge for that.

Hunting subsonic further complicates the equation. If you can’t or won’t close the distance on your target, can’t hit a quarter at 50 yards, don’t know your games anatomy and can’t or won’t learn to track, maybe consider a CheyTac cartridge.

The 300 H’mr and 7.62x39 really aren’t that much different. If 200 pounds of energy is going to sway your hunting cartridge decisions over bullet choice and shot placement, I don’t think you’ve (people in general, not you specific) taken a critical look the ballistic capability of the available bullets. And really it’s ok to make a cartridge choice based on the tried and true scientific methodology of “I like it better because it has a cool name” as long as you understand its capability and use it within those limits.

Just trying to get people to think before they shoot.

I understand what your saying and mostly agree, however I've shot many deer with 7.62x39 in an AR and Howa 1500. The Barnes bullets worked very well at the ranges I used them . Less than 100 yards. I've also taken many deer with 22lr, 40 grain solids out to 75 yards. It is legal in my state and although most of my shots are head shots, when I take a broadside shot, behind the shoulder, the bullet always tumbles through the lungs and creates a wound channel similar to a hollow point. This is also true of pointed bullets like 223/5.56 FMJs. Which I have also taken deer with and they always tumble. The deer I've shot with either have seldom gone over 30 yards and usually much less. You can clearly see in the many YouTube videos that a Spitzer style rifle bullet always tumbles in balistic gell, and it does the same through lung tissue. Pistol bullets on the other hand will pencil through if they don't expand. They will sometimes tumble also but they are not consistent. I think it has to do with the length of the bullet compared to the diameter. The longer bullets tumble more easily.

 

[dellet]

I understand what your saying and mostly agree, however I've shot many deer with 7.62x39 in an AR and Howa 1500. The Barnes bullets worked very well at the ranges I used them . Less than 100 yards. I've also taken many deer with 22lr, 40 grain solids out to 75 yards. It is legal in my state and although most of my shots are head shots, when I take a broadside shot, behind the shoulder, the bullet always tumbles through the lungs and creates a wound channel similar to a hollow point. This is also true of pointed bullets like 223/5.56 FMJs. Which I have also taken deer with and they always tumble. The deer I've shot with either have seldom gone over 30 yards and usually much less. You can clearly see in the many YouTube videos that a Spitzer style rifle bullet always tumbles in balistic gell, and it does the same through lung tissue. Pistol bullets on the other hand will pencil through if they don't expand. They will sometimes tumble also but they are not consistent. I think it has to do with the length of the bullet compared to the diameter. The longer bullets tumble more easily.

But that is exactly the point. You know what the bullets will do, and how to use them.
The flip side is that the 223 round for the military was more or less designed to tumble, expansion being off the table. So its basically working as designed.

The military actually re designed the issue ammo for Iraq and Afghanistan, the problem was over penetration due to smaller body size and lack of fat. The answer was a heavier bullet pushed faster, and an higher rate of twist to increase the tumble. That’s counter intuitive.