i saw about 45 years ago there was case made up by a gunsmith that was put on a rifle action by the name of tom drummond that shot at the 1000 yard shoots at williamsport.he used a 60 degree angle on the cases and blew out the sides almose straight .he used weatherby case for this setup also.my question is how do any improved cases that are used to day compare to this design.i see 30 degree 35 degree 40 degree and 45 degree on all sorts of them.is there a best degree to use.thanks for your imput.
shoulder angle on cases
- Thread starter maddysdad
- Start date
NZ_Fclass
Silver $$ Contributor
Was this you in 2017 on Benchrest Central?
"I was looking at a article about Tom Drummond a noted 1000 yard shooter from Williamsport area in the early 70s.his cartriges had a 60 degree shoulder on the on the weatherby cases.ackly used 40 degree and the ppc has a 30 degree .my ? is is there a perfect angle for the shoulder or is this a personal thing?
most factory cases are 25 degree.
gary b"
"I was looking at a article about Tom Drummond a noted 1000 yard shooter from Williamsport area in the early 70s.his cartriges had a 60 degree shoulder on the on the weatherby cases.ackly used 40 degree and the ppc has a 30 degree .my ? is is there a perfect angle for the shoulder or is this a personal thing?
most factory cases are 25 degree.
gary b"
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
At that time speed was king at Williamsport. You tried to cheat the wind. Things have changed. I like 30 degree shoulders. FL sizing dies work better than with the steeper shoulders.
Factory brass has a higher forming failure rate as the shoulder goes past 30°. Most modern saami are 30°, with a handful at 35°, 280ai is the only commercial saami 40 that I know of.
Yep. Harvey Donaldson found a 30* shoulder was best for his 219 Wasp. That was back in 1940 after considerable testing.
The 6 PPC has a 30* shoulder and heck, the super fantasamgorial 6.5 Creedmoor has a 30* shoulder- that ought to tell you sumtin.
i am looking for a long range ground hog hunting round like they use up at williamsport .at one time the 7mm on the 300 weatherby was a great round i was to;ld and some used the 6.5 on the 300 weatherby.my question is for this kind of hunting what are they using today.now i also understand back then they also hunted white tail deer with the same rifles.
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
To the ridiculous: my 308 ZTSS. I had a gunsmith cut a single flute reamer* for a 308 Win with a Zero (.002") Taper, Square Shoulder (90-degree angle) design.
* a single flute reamer is made by milling a cartridge profile out of good tool steel. You then mill it in half lengthwise. Sharpen it, and you have a tool which usually will cut one or at most two chambers before it's useful life is over.
My old gunsmith learned his trade as an armorer during the Korean War. He was magic, he even knew how to use a file to shape things.
Anyway, he made the reamer, cut a chamber, and then sharpened it about .001" and made me a FL sizing die. He shortened the shoulder about .003" to bump the shoulder on virgin commercial 308 brass and we made a dozen or so cases. The .002" taper was insufficient to reliably extract fired cases, I had to use a cleaning rod to tap the brass out.
it was fun, back in the '80's we did a lot of tinkering. All the way from my 22-378 Wby to a 550 Gibbs. It was possible because I had that gunsmith who was always on board for experiments. $20 bucks cash, and a large Bucket of Chicken and we were down the road.
* a single flute reamer is made by milling a cartridge profile out of good tool steel. You then mill it in half lengthwise. Sharpen it, and you have a tool which usually will cut one or at most two chambers before it's useful life is over.
My old gunsmith learned his trade as an armorer during the Korean War. He was magic, he even knew how to use a file to shape things.
Anyway, he made the reamer, cut a chamber, and then sharpened it about .001" and made me a FL sizing die. He shortened the shoulder about .003" to bump the shoulder on virgin commercial 308 brass and we made a dozen or so cases. The .002" taper was insufficient to reliably extract fired cases, I had to use a cleaning rod to tap the brass out.
it was fun, back in the '80's we did a lot of tinkering. All the way from my 22-378 Wby to a 550 Gibbs. It was possible because I had that gunsmith who was always on board for experiments. $20 bucks cash, and a large Bucket of Chicken and we were down the road.
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
He's always been on the hunt asking about the old and obscure. I remember all those posts he made on BRC. Guess he's made it over here
Those are called the 26 and 28 Nosler these days.
Not sure why you'd hunt deer with them in an era of laser range finders and ballistic apps.
10 years ago, a custom reamer, headspace gages, and custom dies were ~$600. After a series of neck down, 35 degree shoulder set back and neck down 40 degree improved, I came away with an appreciation for the BooBoo cartridges. 30 degree, ~0.012"/" body taper. Whoever came up with those must have been eating their own cooking. That is, chambering, loading, and shooting them with an appreciation for the whole process over multiple firings. They're easier to produce a clean chamber finish with than the 0.009"/" used with the PRC and 33XC cartridges. Size much easier and more consistently as well.
Single use homemade single flute reamers are for when the zombies come, not really what anybody who's serious would use. Generally, the best that you can hope for is things are worth what they cost, but it's not guaranteed.
Single use homemade single flute reamers are for when the zombies come, not really what anybody who's serious would use. Generally, the best that you can hope for is things are worth what they cost, but it's not guaranteed.
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
The single flute reamers had their hay-day from about 1947-48 until the early seventies from what I recall. You guys do not know that half the gunsmiths of that era were experimenting with shoulder angle, neck length, and OAL for short range BR competition. Many of them were based of the 219 Zipper.
One of my favorite examples was the Marciante Blue Streak. Bob Marciante was an East Coast Gunsmith and BR competitor. He was getting 50 cases prepped for a match, on short notice. The cases were FL Zipper, which he had bumped back maybe a tenth and left a long neck. He just cut a single flute reamer to the long(er) neck dimensions and chambered his new barrel for the case. He called it the Blue Streak. He won the match, which resulted in several orders for his design.
The other was gunsmiths whose customers wanted a Weatherby chambering. What Weatherby never told anyone was part of the increased velocity he claimed was based on two criteria.
1. Many of the test barrels used were 28-30 inches long.
2. Many of those barrels were smooth bore, no rifling.
I heard that from John Buhmiller when I was at his shop. He also told me that part of the double radius shoulder made it difficult for local gunsmiths to copy.
Many shooters did not want to pay Weatherby to rechamber their barrels, or wait in line. Local gunsmiths would just cut a single flute reamer and do a barrel. You would need 3-5 customers wanting a caliber to make the reamer from Weatherby worth while.
Next time, we discuss the PMVF concept.
ISS
One of my favorite examples was the Marciante Blue Streak. Bob Marciante was an East Coast Gunsmith and BR competitor. He was getting 50 cases prepped for a match, on short notice. The cases were FL Zipper, which he had bumped back maybe a tenth and left a long neck. He just cut a single flute reamer to the long(er) neck dimensions and chambered his new barrel for the case. He called it the Blue Streak. He won the match, which resulted in several orders for his design.
The other was gunsmiths whose customers wanted a Weatherby chambering. What Weatherby never told anyone was part of the increased velocity he claimed was based on two criteria.
1. Many of the test barrels used were 28-30 inches long.
2. Many of those barrels were smooth bore, no rifling.
I heard that from John Buhmiller when I was at his shop. He also told me that part of the double radius shoulder made it difficult for local gunsmiths to copy.
Many shooters did not want to pay Weatherby to rechamber their barrels, or wait in line. Local gunsmiths would just cut a single flute reamer and do a barrel. You would need 3-5 customers wanting a caliber to make the reamer from Weatherby worth while.
Next time, we discuss the PMVF concept.
ISS
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
BTW I did the Boo Boo, 8X68 case, and the Yogi, based on the 338 Lapua with the encouragement of Chuck Bass who said hey lets do this.
And they had .010" taper per inch
And yes everything worked as it should. I have brass that has 50+ firings and shot in multiple barrels.
It can be done.
Yes, I was being a smart alec and know where the BooBoo came from. I'm too old to use emojis to convey context.
I calced the taper off the QL drawing. The larger point I was trying to make was those cartridges were thought out by someone with enough experience to take the entire life cycle of a barrel and cases into consideration rather than tunnel visioning on some design feature that didn't really contribute much to scoring and introduced unneeded overheads.
I think they also started with logistics. A readily available high quality case of about the right capacity to start with. My understanding is their popularity faded when that brass wasn't as readily available. I have a stash of Lapua manufactured 338 Lapua brass with the BBR headstamp that I picked up for 80 cents a stick. These days, most of it is becoming 300 Lapua. I load it to pressures well below what the brass will take because it scores better at those pressures.
I calced the taper off the QL drawing. The larger point I was trying to make was those cartridges were thought out by someone with enough experience to take the entire life cycle of a barrel and cases into consideration rather than tunnel visioning on some design feature that didn't really contribute much to scoring and introduced unneeded overheads.
I think they also started with logistics. A readily available high quality case of about the right capacity to start with. My understanding is their popularity faded when that brass wasn't as readily available. I have a stash of Lapua manufactured 338 Lapua brass with the BBR headstamp that I picked up for 80 cents a stick. These days, most of it is becoming 300 Lapua. I load it to pressures well below what the brass will take because it scores better at those pressures.
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
The on again off again supply of brass sure didn't help. It did however lead to the wildcatting of the 375 Ruger case in 2009, I called it 300 HSM at the time. Then it turned into the 300 PRC in 2017.
Sniperhandle
Silver $$ Contributor
I have always wanted to build a rifle in your "Boo Boo" but the brass is impossible to find anymore. I wish I would have done it 20 years ago or so.
Why can't all brass be made that well? That brass is legendary for the toughness and how many times it can be shot.
Also, did you work with Hornady on their 300 PRC or did they borrow your idea?
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
I was doing the work for the guys at Hornady that shot 1K BR. They were all shooting the BooBoo. I get a call one day and "Hey take a look at this reamer print". I said well it's a little more capacity than we need, the response " yea we know". Then "I'm sending you brass and a reamer". We were off to the races. Did they borrow my idea? Not really. They're a smart bunch of people there. There is very little that's new in this game. Most things are reheated left overs.
I worked with Hornady and Accuracy International when the 30 and 338 version were submitted for the first Precision Sniper Rifle submission.
DRK
Silver $$ Contributor
A very wise man.
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