Waisted barrels

[jelenko]

Table manners

Not table manners, but my position/shot execution.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Many 'bad barrels' are caused by:
-No wind flags
-Poor bedding
-Table manners
-Seating depth waaaaay off
-Neck tension waaaaay off

You can also insert 'bad scope' for 'bad barrel'.

Good shootin' -Al

And donuts.

I bet more people have blamed bad barrels on seating into the donut (after their new brass has a few reloads on it) than any other failure.

"After 500 rounds my barrel was burnt up and wouldn't shoot any more".

Using a standard press and just cramming those bullets into the donut and never knowing it.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I bought a 6mm Competition Match rifle for $1200.00. 30" Kreiger heavy Palma barrel, benchrest stock, Hall action, Jewell trigger, muzzle brake, redding custom die set, 115 DTAC'S, Lapua .243 brass, 10.5 pounds of H1000. All this because the 2nd hundred rounds shot all over the place. After receiving everything I went to setting up the FL bushing sizing die with a decapping stem. Went to seat a bullet and it did not feel right. I immediately grabbed a few pieces of unsized brass and sure enough there was interference in putting a bullet in the fired brass pass the neck shoulder junction. DONUTS! I got rid of the donuts and that rifle shoots.

 

[FrankG]

it is a "thing" at this moment in time to not clean among a lot shooters. i use that term "shooter" loosely.

This is becoming a real problem. ^^^^

I forgot to put that in my post... about the rifle that shot 4moa....

Was a PD rifle. Lucky if the barrel had 1500 rounds on it in 308win. They told me it shot 4moa!

They asked me to look at the barrel/gun. When I bore scoped the barrel.. I asked a simple question. When was it cleaned last? I showed them all the carbon build up and the copper fouling as well. They said, "the previous guy in charge told them not to clean the guns at all! Only to run a oiled patch down the bore if they got caught out in the rain."

I told them... I bet my next paycheck if I gave it a good cleaning you would see the gun would go right back to being a sub moa rifle. Everyone was pretty quiet.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Shooter13]

Am I the only guy who opened up this thread about "Waisted Barrels", and expected to see pics of barrels that were skinny in the middle, and bigger on both ends??
jd

Yes! LOL

 

[jackieschmidt]

Accuracy expectations determines on how good a barrel is. Or, perhaps better said, the requirements of the shooting Discipline you are involved in.
A good game hunting rifle should be able to put 3 shots in a 2” circle at 200 yards, with the bullet you plan on hunting with. The rifle should also feed, extract, and eject rounds flawlessly.

When you get into target shooting, where scores are kept, things become different. I would think that F-Class and PRS have similar requirements. You are shooting at distances where down range ballistics comes into play as much as the actual capability of the rifle. I know several F-Class shooters who are perfectly satisfied shooting .500 groups at 100 yards with a bullet that has a BC in the 550+ area. The same can be said for several of the PRS shooters I know, although they strive for as bid of a BC number as they can get to shoot at the level af accuracy required.

Then we come to Benchrest, both long and Short Range. This is when things get beyond the realm of normal rifle precision and accuracy.
Long Range Shooters have the task of not only finding a tune that will produce the best grouping capability, but also will hold that level of accuracy out to 600 and 1000 yards. This is not always an easy task, since things like SD and ES, which are (almost) meaningless in Short Range, become very important factors when the carried out at longer ranges.

In Short Range, either Group or Score, the “magic” standard of any combination is that much talked about “.200 and below agging capability” of the Combination. That word “Combination” is very important. That includes everything that got you there, from the time you order a new barrel until you squeeze off the first round.

I am a Short Range Benchrest Shooter, particularly Score. I shoot the same bullet, (my own), powder, type of barrel, and Rifle all the time in Matches. I feel like that when testing, over my flags, I have to account for every bullet on the target. If a bullet does end up on the paper where that I think it should not be, I have to find out why.

You have to have 100% faith in the capabilities of the barrel. I feel like I can ascertain when a barrel is not capable. I shoot Krieger and Bartlien cut rifled barrels. There are some things I look for when I am setting one up to chamber, but in the end, the only thing that counts is how it performs when it is called too.
I have a friend, Ed Bernabeo, that shoots my bullets, I chamber his barrels, and we shoot the exact same load combination. At the first of this year, he was struggling with a new barrel that was what I would call a “16x Barrel”. No matter how hard he tried, the thing was not going to give him anything. I even checked, and double checked everything.
We finally set his previous barrel back by cutting the entire thread off and treating it like a new blank. This was a VERY good barrel.
His Rifle suddenly came back to life. What as wrong with that new barrel? I don’t know. Everything looked good except what the target said.

As Short Range Shooters, we have to know when something isn’t right. True, I have barrels that are good barrels that will never see the rifle again. They will not shoot the combination I shoot at a competitive level. They might shoot some one else’s bullet and powder combo but……..
I do not have enough time in the day to keep burning powder and putting bullets in the burm to find out why.

A while back I did a Mauser Project. I just wanted to for no particular reason. I did all of my usual machinist tricks to insure the old action was as good as it could be.
It is in 280 Remington. I chambered a nice Chrome Moly Bartlien barrel. The project came out really nice.
It will put put 5 shots in 1/2 inch at 100 yards with 140 grn ballistic tips at just over 2900 fps. It feeds great, extracts great, and ejects great.
I consider it one of my best rifle I ever built.

 

[SKWERLZ]

And donuts.

I bet more people have blamed bad barrels on seating into the donut (after their new brass has a few reloads on it) than any other failure.

"After 500 rounds my barrel was burnt up and wouldn't shoot any more".

Using a standard press and just cramming those bullets into the donut and never knowing it.

I had a donut form recently in my 338.
Noticeable increase in ES and groups size.
Fairly new barrel.

 

[FrankG]

back to not cleaning and accuracy issues...

Two different customers in a months time frame. PRS shooters. Caliber is 6.5PRC for both. It was all in cleaning. One guy never cleaned the gun/barrel since the day it was put on. Sends me pic's... says bad steel and it died early. See all the cracks in it! I said, "that's not fire cracking. That's powder/carbon build up." I asked, "how you cleaning it?" He said he hasn't and the barrel has 300 rounds on it now in the pics that were sent to me. I said, "you have to humor me and clean it and I'm going to tell you how to clean it." He said o.k. and that he had another match coming up the next weekend and he would call to tell me how he/it shoots. So he did call me like on a Tuesday after the match... his exact words... " I have to do more maintenance. I won the 1200 and 1400 yard portion of the match and gun shot awesome the whole time."

Some calibers do require more maintenance then others... but either way you have to maintain the system.

A 6CM or a 243win just like a 6.5 magnum will require more maintenance than a 308win or a 223 or a 6BR gun etc... Just saying.

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

Am I the only guy who opened up this thread about "Waisted Barrels", and expected to see pics of barrels that were skinny in the middle, and bigger on both ends??
jd

I was expecting to see a "swamped" muzzleloader barrel.

 

[dellet]

back to not cleaning and accuracy issues...

Two different customers in a months time frame. PRS shooters. Caliber is 6.5PRC for both. It was all in cleaning. One guy never cleaned the gun/barrel since the day it was put on. Sends me pic's... says bad steel and it died early. See all the cracks in it! I said, "that's not fire cracking. That's powder/carbon build up." I asked, "how you cleaning it?" He said he hasn't and the barrel has 300 rounds on it now in the pics that were sent to me. I said, "you have to humor me and clean it and I'm going to tell you how to clean it." He said o.k. and that he had another match coming up the next weekend and he would call to tell me how he/it shoots. So he did call me like on a Tuesday after the match... his exact words... " I have to do more maintenance. I won the 1200 and 1400 yard portion of the match and gun shot awesome the whole time."

Some calibers do require more maintenance then others... but either way you have to maintain the system.

A 6CM or a 243win just like a 6.5 magnum will require more maintenance than a 308win or a 223 or a 6BR gun etc... Just saying.

There seems to always be a subset of shooters that think cleaning is a sign of weakness. I might point fingers at the AR crowd, but hate to lump them all together.

There was a huge no clean crowd that moved over to 300 Blackout. Sub Sonic was the most inaccurate type of shooting ever on the face of the earth.

No matter how hard you tried to convince people that a cartridge that only burned 60% of the powder, was suppressed to insure that all that crap was blown back into the chamber, and caked like iron onto the muzzle, needed to be cleaned more often than when the fire control group finally failed due to the same build up.

Seems for some it was easier to replace the barrel than clean.

Those were some interesting discussions.

 

[NC/Br Shooter]

That's the reason my leupold is being sent off for customer service.. just to make sure

Did you actually talk them into working or your scope? It's miracle if they stated back.

 

[jds holler]

And donuts.

I bet more people have blamed bad barrels on seating into the donut (after their new brass has a few reloads on it) than any other failure.

"After 500 rounds my barrel was burnt up and wouldn't shoot any more".

Using a standard press and just cramming those bullets into the donut and never knowing it.

Yeah, this one's kinda the bug in my bonnet lately.

Think of the times when someone has said, "My rifle is great with 130's, but just won't shoot the 140's for crap."

It may simply be that the 130's simply aren't long enough to get seated into the dreaded "donut zone". jd

 

[jackieschmidt]

Yeah, this one's kinda the bug in my bonnet lately.

Think of the times when someone has said, "My rifle is great with 130's, but just won't shoot the 140's for crap."

It may simply be that the 130's simply aren't long enough to get seated into the dreaded "donut zone". jd

For optimum performance, you really should throat the barrel for what ever bullet you will be shooting.
Everything else is a compromise.

 

[Steve Donlon]

I pretty much always agree with you, but not on this one. I’ve had a ton of barrels and never seen one that just had to have a magic combo to shoot well.

But, I stick to classic combinations and shoot very little in the way of bullets that’s not made by Bart.

I’d say I’ve had one bad barrel in my life and a couple that wanted a change, which I did in less than 30 rounds and had them going like I wanted shortly after. I tried a lot of stuff in the bad one, a 6.5x47… I gave it to a guy that wasted another 300 bullets and gave up. I got it warrantied.

In a 100 rounds? Maybe a lightweight hunting rifle with a pencil thin barrel. If you only can shoot three rounds before they go south. But a target rifle may just have a sweet spot or you are just using the wrong bullet? The one that was warrantied, did you see any clues with a bore scope? Just looking for answers because I never had a good barrel that did not shoot good.

 

[jlorenzo]

Wasted?

 

[Clancy]

In a 100 rounds? Maybe a lightweight hunting rifle with a pencil thin barrel. If you only can shoot three rounds before they go south. But a target rifle may just have a sweet spot or you are just using the wrong bullet? The one that was warrantied, did you see any clues with a bore scope? Just looking for answers because I never had a good barrel that did not shoot good.

I’m sorry I don’t know what you mean in the first part.

No the barrel scoped fine.

 

[FNSafari]

There’s been a train car load of barrels scrapped because of bad scopes.

That's an easy one to check!

 

[FrankG]

There seems to always be a subset of shooters that think cleaning is a sign of weakness. I might point fingers at the AR crowd, but hate to lump them all together.

There was a huge no clean crowd that moved over to 300 Blackout. Sub Sonic was the most inaccurate type of shooting ever on the face of the earth.

No matter how hard you tried to convince people that a cartridge that only burned 60% of the powder, was suppressed to insure that all that crap was blown back into the chamber, and caked like iron onto the muzzle, needed to be cleaned more often than when the fire control group finally failed due to the same build up.

Seems for some it was easier to replace the barrel than clean.

Those were some interesting discussions.

Glad I didn't see those threads.

The 300AAC is in a different class at times. I've seen other issues with it... and it all went back to cleaning.

That was the first rifle my kid wanted for deer hunting. So I built him a AR15 in 300AAC. 16" barrel and can run it suppressed. That frickin gun is a hammer. Box ammo Hornady with 208Amax bullets will give 1/2moa groups at a 100 yards. He uses 135 Hornady ammo for deer hunting.

 

[Steve Donlon]

I’m sorry I don’t know what you mean in the first part.

No the barrel scoped fine.

I meant that in a hunting rifle with a thin barrel, you can only shoot three shots before the groups go south. So it may be easier to tell if it's not a keeper. I had a Winchester super lite or a featherweight can't remember 30-06 with a 22" barrel and it was all over the place from the first shot. But I just thought that was the way hunting rifles were back then. Then I got a Browning MK2 30-06 and I was okay.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Like factory guns or custom guns? I feel like if they’re custom you’re leaving a lot on the table. I don’t have anything but hunting rifles and they shoot exceptionally well. Just wondering, not bashing.

A bit of both. Some factory, some semi-custom. No custom action builds.

When you say "exceptionally well" are we talking you once shot a .2" 3-shot or 5-shot group, or are you taking an average group size of at least 30 shots (which is about the sample size you need to be statistically significant)?
Also, when doing that average you don't get to throw out "called shots". A poor shot is a poor shot.

FWIW, when I throw a number out there that is an average of around 100 shots. Obviously, some will be smaller, some will be larger.

Here is an example. Both of these groups were shot with my 6.5.06AI. As you can see on the second target, there is a shot that is outside the main group. I called that one as mirage was getting bad. So, would you say that rifle is a .3 gun or a .6 gun?