A little strength exercise this morning.

[David Milisock]

After the work I did shooting and then cleaning with my 358 Norma, my AR 15 A2 in 5.56 and my Aero Precision AR in 6MM ARC I decided that I wanted to add some strength building too my regime.

I took my sporterized 8MM Mauser to the range with a bandolier of 174 grain 1944 surplus ammo. The rifle was cut to 20 1/2", has a synthetic stock, a Lyman peep sight and front blade. BTW I paid $4.70 for the entire 70 rounds many years ago. The bolt and receiver have matching numbers, the magazine follower has been ground down and a Timney trigger added. I paid, I believe, $125 for it as it is.

I started about 9:30 AM and wanted to keep moving as 87 degrees was going to be the high. Shooting off hand and from a seated position, no front or rear bags at 50 then 100 yards I found that I needed to go slower. Three bouts with cancer and the resulting reduced range times over the last 3 years leaves me desiring MORE range time.

After shooting about half the bandolier I took a bit of a break and looked longingly at a 12" x 12" white steel plate, backed up with a deer silhouette down at the 300 yard backstop. I sat at the bench supporting my elbow on the top and loaded a stripper clip of 5 rounds. I hit 2 out of 5, I loaded another clip and hit 1 out of 5, the next clip I hit 3 out of 5.

That ratio kept up until the ammunition ran out, which was OK as it was getting warm and my lack of stamina training was showing.

Yes the rifle is heavy and clunky, it's also 81 years old, but it only cost $125, (I don't know the cost today), was shooting 81 year old military surplus ammunition by a shooter who needs to get his lazy ass back on the range and it was still capable of placing hits on medium sized game at 300 yards and about 40% on a much smaller target. Buy one if you can find one.

 

[K22]

Bravo - great to see you out active at the range. Double bravo for engaging in practical shooting!

As for me, I enjoy practical shooting off my home-made cross sticks. This is mentally pleasing to me that I don't need a bench or any elaborate tripods, etc. to shoot to my standards. It is also fun to test myself is real world conditions with idea that no terrain is an obstacle for me to make a hit if I do my part.

While my hunting days are coming to an end, it's still fun for me to do practical range shooting.

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

After 3 bouts with cancer, any range time at all sounds like a huge blessing!

Take care.

 

[David Milisock]

Bravo - great to see you out active at the range. Double bravo for engaging in practical shooting!

As for me, I enjoy practical shooting off my home-made cross sticks. This is mentally pleasing to me that I don't need a bench or any elaborate tripods, etc. to shoot to my standards. It is also fun to test myself is real world conditions with idea that no terrain is an obstacle for me to make a hit if I do my part.

While my hunting days are coming to an end, it's still fun for me to do practical range shooting.

I understand training but only training for practical uses. A rifle is a tool and to use a tool one must practice in an environment similar to the one that you'll use the tool in. I lean on polls, (trees) lay on the ground looking over a makeshift rest, sit to shoot if it works better, use shooting sticks whatever it takes.

I don't get competitions and I'm sure competitive shoots don't get what I do. God Bless America!

 

[David Milisock]

After 3 bouts with cancer, any range time at all sounds like a huge blessing!

Take care.

Tell me about it, if it were up to me when they come for me with the meat wagon may they have to drive to where I've been shooting!!! If you've got to go, live as long as you can and go with grace!!

 

[wildcatter]

I understand training but only training for practical uses. A rifle is a tool and to use a tool one must practice in an environment similar to the one that you'll use the tool in. I lean on polls, (trees) lay on the ground looking over a makeshift rest, sit to shoot if it works better, use shooting sticks whatever it takes.

I don't get competitions and I'm sure competitive shoots don't get what I do. God Bless America!

I dont think you understand, competition shooting demands nothing more than practical shooting!

By competing in benchrest, both long and short range, I have to follow a specific protocal, perfection is a requierment. But one quickly learns that following the perfect setup and following the ideal technique to arrive at perfection is useless without very advanced reloading technique. You aint winning with anything but personally, highly assembled ammunition!

Then hunting accuracy becomes a totally different tecnique. Your not dragging rests and benches for a perfect shot. But a perfect shot is requiered on the target of opertunity to be successful. That only comes with practice, and that means practice in the same scenario you will be faced in the field!

Over 50 years hunting on own and only 1 lost big game animal out of 100's, I can account for. But I contribute my success to not only practice. I have found understanding what is a good shot maters, then knowing, that like in cometition, i practiced tirelessly in the different scenarios i could find myself in when in the field, is what paid off.

Finally knowing my hunting setup and ammo was tuned as perfectly as possible, I had all my homework covered. Something no shooter understands better than a competition shooter, it just bleeds over into other shooting disciplines.

Glad your able to enjoy the craft you prefer again!! Wishing you many more gradifying sessions, (workouts)!

 

[David Milisock]

I dont think you understand, competition shooting demands nothing more than practical shooting!

By competing in benchrest, both long and short range, I have to follow a specific protocal, perfection is a requierment. But one quickly learns that following the perfect setup and following the ideal technique to arrive at perfection is useless without very advanced reloading technique. You aint winning with anything but personally, highly assembled ammunition!

Then hunting accuracy becomes a totally different tecnique. Your not dragging rests and benches for a perfect shot. But a perfect shot is requiered on the target of opertunity to be successful. That only comes with practice, and that means practice in the same scenario you will be faced in the field!

Over 50 years hunting on own and only 1 lost big game animal out of 100's, I can account for. But I contribute my success to not only practice. I have found understanding what is a good shot maters, then knowing, that like in cometition, i practiced tirelessly in the different scenarios i could find myself in when in the field, is what paid off.

Finally knowing my hunting setup and ammo was tuned as perfectly as possible, I had all my homework covered. Something no shooter understands better than a competition shooter, it just bleeds over into other shooting disciplines.

Glad your able to enjoy the craft you prefer again!! Wishing you many more gradifying sessions, (workouts)!

I agree and disagree! I agree because competition shooting requires practice and repeatable precision for many shots in controlled environments, known distances, with supporting accessories.

I disagree because the practice for field shooting starts with bench work to develop a load that unlike competitive shooting may or may not utilize the most accurate load. As an example, my 223 and my 6MM Remington shoot loads in the field that are not the most accurate but are the fastest, much more the 223 than the 6MM.

This is done in the 223 because at 100 and 200 yards the most accurate load is nearly 600 FPS slower than the most accurate load at 300. The most accurate load at 300 yards creates groups 1/8" larger at 100 and 200 yards but because of the reduced time of flight produces smaller groups at 300 99.9% of the time. The slower load does produce great 300-yard groups but is ridiculously wind sensitive and can do so only on perfect days.

Field shooting many times does not allow for adjusting the scope and requires training to utilize methods and doping the wind and hold over in unpredictable environments. Stop, drop and fire in seconds from many varied positions. Of course, the bench work of working the loads is the start then developing real trajectories at known ranges that you need to keep in head for instant hold over or under.

 

[wildcatter]

I agree and disagree! I agree because competition shooting requires practice and repeatable precision for many shots in controlled environments, known distances, with supporting accessories.

I disagree because the practice for field shooting starts with bench work to develop a load that unlike competitive shooting may or may not utilize the most accurate load. As an example, my 223 and my 6MM Remington shoot loads in the field that are not the most accurate but are the fastest, much more the 223 than the 6MM.

This is done in the 223 because at 100 and 200 yards the most accurate load is nearly 600 FPS slower than the most accurate load at 300. The most accurate load at 300 yards creates groups 1/8" larger at 100 and 200 yards but because of the reduced time of flight produces smaller groups at 300 99.9% of the time. The slower load does produce great 300-yard groups but is ridiculously wind sensitive and can do so only on perfect days.

Field shooting many times does not allow for adjusting the scope and requires training to utilize methods and doping the wind and hold over in unpredictable environments. Stop, drop and fire in seconds from many varied positions. Of course, the bench work of working the loads is the start then developing real trajectories at known ranges that you need to keep in head for instant hold over or under.

you sure missed that! By not be a competition shooter you will never understand the benefits that follow over to Hunting!

As I said All competition shooters that hunt understand the difference, and do the practice appropriately. That is why they don't practice for hunting the same way, they practice for competition!! But they dam sure shoot the fastest most accurate ammo!

But there are many benefits, mainly tayloring your loads, which no hunter only could ever overnight, load well enough to call there ammunition Match Grade! Another benefit is "TRIGGER TIME" this serves as muscle memory, much more critical for competition than hunting, but very nice to master for both.

But I find it funny a one aspect shooter dictating he practices better than someone who masters more than one aspect of shooting a firearm efficiently,,,, amazing.

Any Benchrest shooter knows how pushing pressures are important to atain the best speed as well as accuracy, as top pressures create more consistent burn rates with smokeless powders. By not being a competition shooter I understand how you would miss that. But trust me, no one shoots hotter, or more accurate loads than benchrest shooters!! And that is a fact!! Time to the target is most critical when .005" on a five shot, five group average can cost you 2 or 3 places!

As I said, I hope you get to enjoy many more range session, no matter how significant you prefer them to be! I suggest you attend a couple BR matches, both long and short range, as it is obvious you would bennefit from it,,,, if your willing to listen.

But make no mistake, everything any hunter benefits from as far as components, techniques, ammo, optics, as well as firearms and accessories, oading tools and equipment, on and on, they can thank BR shooters for, they were the ones that tested and developed it, the industry takes that and runs with it,, another fact!

 

[David Milisock]

you sure missed that! By not be a competition shooter you will never understand the benefits that follow over to Hunting!

As I said All competition shooters that hunt understand the difference, and do the practice appropriately. That is why they don't practice for hunting the same way, they practice for competition!! But they dam sure shoot the fastest most accurate ammo!

But there are many benefits, mainly tayloring your loads, which no hunter only could ever overnight, load well enough to call there ammunition Match Grade! Another benefit is "TRIGGER TIME" this serves as muscle memory, much more critical for competition than hunting, but very nice to master for both.

But I find it funny a one aspect shooter dictating he practices better than someone who masters more than one aspect of shooting a firearm efficiently,,,, amazing.

Any Benchrest shooter knows how pushing pressures are important to atain the best speed as well as accuracy, as top pressures create more consistent burn rates with smokeless powders. By not being a competition shooter I understand how you would miss that. But trust me, no one shoots hotter, or more accurate loads than benchrest shooters!! And that is a fact!! Time to the target is most critical when .005" on a five shot, five group average can cost you 2 or 3 places!

As I said, I hope you get to enjoy many more range session, no matter how significant you prefer them to be! I suggest you attend a couple BR matches, both long and short range, as it is obvious you would bennefit from it,,,, if your willing to listen.

But make no mistake, everything any hunter benefits from as far as components, techniques, ammo, optics, as well as firearms and accessories, oading tools and equipment, on and on, they can thank BR shooters for, they were the ones that tested and developed it, the industry takes that and runs with it,, another fact!

I'm 70 years old since the early 70's I've attended probably 200 or more competitions, that's how I know that they're not for me.

A day before my strength training I took my A2 in 5.56, my M4E in 6 ARC and my 358 Norma Magnum out. The Norma was put away 24 months ago, I pulled it out of the cabinet, visually checked the bore only. Sat with a bipod and no stock support, fired a 3 shot cold bore at 300 yards that was a bit more than an inch at point of aim

That what I load and train for, any rifle I have can, from a cold bore place one piece of lead where I expect it and maybe a follow up if needed. I don't care about the next 20 rounds, unless they're fired one or two at a time on subsequent trips.

It takes alot of time and trips to the range but it works.

 

[K22]

I shot competition pistol for about 30 years, and it was certainly challenging and demanding. But I was shooting at known distances almost always under cover. I certainly respect competition shooters and dealing with match pressure. I am truly amazed at benchrest guys hitting those tiny bullseyes. Then there are those long-range guys, shooting at distances unheard of in my younger days. I respect all of them and their skills.

Just my opinion, but for me, nothing compares to field shooting especially varmint hunting where you are dealing with the sun beating down on you, insects, varying terrain, varying distances, changing target profiles, targets in various states of obscurity due to the variable ground cover. For me, it is the ultimate test (except for combat) of a rifleman.

 

[ISS]

Agreed! After five organ removal surgeries for Agent Orange I brought home from RVN I am about out of spare parts.

Sua Sponte

 

[wildcatter]

I'm 70 years old since the early 70's I've attended probably 200 or more competitions, that's how I know that they're not for me.

A day before my strength training I took my A2 in 5.56, my M4E in 6 ARC and my 358 Norma Magnum out. The Norma was put away 24 months ago, I pulled it out of the cabinet, visually checked the bore only. Sat with a bipod and no stock support, fired a 3 shot cold bore at 300 yards that was a bit more than an inch at point of aim

That what I load and train for, any rifle I have can, from a cold bore place one piece of lead where I expect it and maybe a follow up if needed. I don't care about the next 20 rounds, unless they're fired one or two at a time on subsequent trips.

It takes alot of time and trips to the range but it works.

Now this I absolutely agree with. Last fall and thru the winter I spent putting two new hunting rigs together, a 257 AI for varmint, mainly ground hogs over 800 yards, and a 338/06 AI in as light of a package and short well ballance for big game.

I have for decades told folks, 3 shot groups, with priority on the same poi from the first shot out of a cold clean barrel was my goal. both are spot on with my elbows on the bench and my front paw resting with a sand bag under it and my forearm snugly gripped in it, with a cold barrel and first shot placed 236 yards down range on the freshly painted gongs that day placed its first shot exactly where I aimed, just south of center. Where I held not certain where I would hit since this was the first load I had assembled with the Ackley formed Improved cases formed from 30/06 Lapua cases.

I then shot five fireforming rounds of the last 10 I had of the 50 cases I had necked up, using the same hold as the 180 grain AI load on the gong. That was the last of the 50 rounds to break the barrel in and form my 50 hunting cases, all I will ever need for this rifles lifetime and use. But then I cleaned the barrel and was going to shoot the last of those 10 fireforming loads but decided to once again see, if the first shot once again would hit the same POI as that last 180 grain load in the ackley formed cases. same thing holding the rifle with nothing under the but, and the back of my forearm hand resting lightly on a sand bag, and this is the resul.


I was aiming at the first impact spot on the late, and it did indeed hit where I held the first shot. As you stated, this the most important shot there is from any big game hunting rifle. But then I proceeded to shoot the last five of the 10 rounds I still had to fireform, which from after about 30 rounds of one tow, and 3 shot breaking in format, with a barrel that fouled pretty heavy in the beginning, was not showing very little copper except a very minor streak in the last inch or so of a couple lands at the muzzle.

So I cleaned one last time, and with it raining still as it had been doing all day, I put the last 3 of the 5 rounds I had loaded in the already formed cases with the same load I had put on the gong at at 236 yard, on the same target I had shot the fireforming loads on. with the scope set where I had last adjusted it to, and from a cold clean bore I did rest the rifle to verify the accuracy of the load this time, and not worried about a hunting hold just how this load would perform. It is the 3 shots in the lower right bull holding center of the square at 100 yards in the rain.

That 3 shot group rested was was the first ever 338/06 AI loaded brass in this new rifle, and other than break in and fireforming, the first AI loads tested in this rifle. I have to admit, my reloading homework isn't always this great right out of the gate. But with this gun only having 50 rounds thru it now, and thru the breakin process never shooting a 3 or 5 shot group over about 7/8 of an inch at 100 yards, I am now convinced its a shooter! Those 3 shots and the two on the gong are with 58 grains of varget and a 180 grain Nosler Accubond bullet Just under 3000 fps. The left side was sight adjustment and the fireforming loads. But I am not using a 180 grain bullet in this gun, it was just the only quality hunting bullet I could get waiting on my Scirocco II Swift 210 grain bullets that I will work a load up for this rig with.

Just how a benchrest shooter goes about setting up a hunting rig. Now the rest of those 280 will get burnt up shooting off trees, fence posts, the ground with my backpack, or raincoat wadded up under it, etc etc. But one thing that had to be proven was! Fist shot goes where every other shot does every time! And most important, it's being pushed pretty hard, and one could not ask for anything better in a 6lbs hunting rifle in 338 caliber, with a 21 1/4" barrel this light and quick handling!


This is just just how this old bench rest shooter goes about setting up and confirming a brand new big game hunting rifle. One made for 500 yards and in. Once proven it wont see a bench again except to confirm the ballistics at 300 yards. Everything else is shooting as it was meticulously built for, hunting situation's, rain snow wind and heat, but always from a field scenario! This is what I meant by using benchrest techniques, to implement into a true hunting rig. Buy the way, that 17 oz Peak 44 carbon fiber stock, makes this little cannon shoot softer than any 30/03 with 150 grain shoots, and is much lighter and more compact!

Then the 257 AI for varmint out to and over 800 yards, the 88 grain HPBT Bib bullets at 3760 fps are kinda pushing the Savage Axis rig, but I hate to argue with the results, and it is proven field ready, no matter the weather.
First group with 54.0 grains of 4350 with that bullet up top bottom was the same load with an 85 grain Nosler BT. I have tuned that one flyer out of the five shot group, and this load now with a change in neck tension and seating depth shooting under 5/8" at 300 yards when I do my part. But gets shot the same sand bag onder the front off the hood of the truck, off a swim noodle cut and split to sit over my truck window from the truck, in the field of a rolled up back pack, whatever, but at 11.5 lbs only the clueless would try over300 yard shots totally off hand. One has to understand how to properly use all equipment, in all conditions that it gets used in.

At 70 years old all us old farts have to overcome and be willing to adapt to keep our edge, something our generation seems to understand more than others?

 

[David Milisock]

Now this I absolutely agree with. Last fall and thru the winter I spent putting two new hunting rigs together, a 257 AI for varmint, mainly ground hogs over 800 yards, and a 338/06 AI in as light of a package and short well ballance for big game.

I have for decades told folks, 3 shot groups, with priority on the same poi from the first shot out of a cold clean barrel was my goal. both are spot on with my elbows on the bench and my front paw resting with a sand bag under it and my forearm snugly gripped in it, with a cold barrel and first shot placed 236 yards down range on the freshly painted gongs that day placed its first shot exactly where I aimed, just south of center. Where I held not certain where I would hit since this was the first load I had assembled with the Ackley formed Improved cases formed from 30/06 Lapua cases.

I then shot five fireforming rounds of the last 10 I had of the 50 cases I had necked up, using the same hold as the 180 grain AI load on the gong. That was the last of the 50 rounds to break the barrel in and form my 50 hunting cases, all I will ever need for this rifles lifetime and use. But then I cleaned the barrel and was going to shoot the last of those 10 fireforming loads but decided to once again see, if the first shot once again would hit the same POI as that last 180 grain load in the ackley formed cases. same thing holding the rifle with nothing under the but, and the back of my forearm hand resting lightly on a sand bag, and this is the resul.
View attachment 1667451

I was aiming at the first impact spot on the late, and it did indeed hit where I held the first shot. As you stated, this the most important shot there is from any big game hunting rifle. But then I proceeded to shoot the last five of the 10 rounds I still had to fireform, which from after about 30 rounds of one tow, and 3 shot breaking in format, with a barrel that fouled pretty heavy in the beginning, was not showing very little copper except a very minor streak in the last inch or so of a couple lands at the muzzle.

So I cleaned one last time, and with it raining still as it had been doing all day, I put the last 3 of the 5 rounds I had loaded in the already formed cases with the same load I had put on the gong at at 236 yard, on the same target I had shot the fireforming loads on. with the scope set where I had last adjusted it to, and from a cold clean bore I did rest the rifle to verify the accuracy of the load this time, and not worried about a hunting hold just how this load would perform. It is the 3 shots in the lower right bull holding center of the square at 100 yards in the rain.
View attachment 1667454
That 3 shot group rested was was the first ever 338/06 AI loaded brass in this new rifle, and other than break in and fireforming, the first AI loads tested in this rifle. I have to admit, my reloading homework isn't always this great right out of the gate. But with this gun only having 50 rounds thru it now, and thru the breakin process never shooting a 3 or 5 shot group over about 7/8 of an inch at 100 yards, I am now convinced its a shooter! Those 3 shots and the two on the gong are with 58 grains of varget and a 180 grain Nosler Accubond bullet Just under 3000 fps. The left side was sight adjustment and the fireforming loads. But I am not using a 180 grain bullet in this gun, it was just the only quality hunting bullet I could get waiting on my Scirocco II Swift 210 grain bullets that I will work a load up for this rig with.

Just how a benchrest shooter goes about setting up a hunting rig. Now the rest of those 280 will get burnt up shooting off trees, fence posts, the ground with my backpack, or raincoat wadded up under it, etc etc. But one thing that had to be proven was! Fist shot goes where every other shot does every time! And most important, it's being pushed pretty hard, and one could not ask for anything better in a 6lbs hunting rifle in 338 caliber, with a 21 1/4" barrel this light and quick handling!
View attachment 1667459

This is just just how this old bench rest shooter goes about setting up and confirming a brand new big game hunting rifle. One made for 500 yards and in. Once proven it wont see a bench again except to confirm the ballistics at 300 yards. Everything else is shooting as it was meticulously built for, hunting situation's, rain snow wind and heat, but always from a field scenario! This is what I meant by using benchrest techniques, to implement into a true hunting rig. Buy the way, that 17 oz Peak 44 carbon fiber stock, makes this little cannon shoot softer than any 30/03 with 150 grain shoots, and is much lighter and more compact!

Then the 257 AI for varmint out to and over 800 yards, the 88 grain HPBT Bib bullets at 3760 fps are kinda pushing the Savage Axis rig, but I hate to argue with the results, and it is proven field ready, no matter the weather.
View attachment 1667461View attachment 1667462First group with 54.0 grains of 4350 with that bullet up top bottom was the same load with an 85 grain Nosler BT. I have tuned that one flyer out of the five shot group, and this load now with a change in neck tension and seating depth shooting under 5/8" at 300 yards when I do my part. But gets shot the same sand bag onder the front off the hood of the truck, off a swim noodle cut and split to sit over my truck window from the truck, in the field of a rolled up back pack, whatever, but at 11.5 lbs only the clueless would try over300 yard shots totally off hand. One has to understand how to properly use all equipment, in all conditions that it gets used in.

At 70 years old all us old farts have to overcome and be willing to adapt to keep our edge, something our generation seems to understand more than others?

A great deal of work, but it always is. The only difference between my old scope mounted sporterized military rifles and my heavy barreled custom rifles is that the heavy barreled rifles will not only shoot the first shot on point of aim they will group nicely with extended rounds.

The old Remington model 17, Mauser 96, 98 or Endfields will put the first one or two at point of aim but they spread from there on. These rifles require the most range trips as you can only fire 2 or 3, 3 shot groups in a range session.

The real skill comes from being inventive on the range when practicing holding your rifle and becoming proficient with a range finder. Finding the inadequacies of range finders is a skill set in its own right.

 

[David Milisock]

I shot competition pistol for about 30 years, and it was certainly challenging and demanding. But I was shooting at known distances almost always under cover. I certainly respect competition shooters and dealing with match pressure. I am truly amazed at benchrest guys hitting those tiny bullseyes. Then there are those long-range guys, shooting at distances unheard of in my younger days. I respect all of them and their skills.

Just my opinion, but for me, nothing compares to field shooting especially varmint hunting where you are dealing with the sun beating down on you, insects, varying terrain, varying distances, changing target profiles, targets in various states of obscurity due to the variable ground cover. For me, it is the ultimate test (except for combat) of a rifleman.

I'll give one thing to varmints, they don't hunt me! It always seems to me that an insect and my bladder always seems to knows exactly when I'm struggling to hold point!

I do respect what benchrest shooters and wildcatters do, in fact their innovations have lead the way in cartridge development it's just not my cup of tea!

 

[K22]

I'll give one thing to varmints, they don't hunt me! It always seems to me that an insect and my bladder always seems to knows exactly when I'm struggling to hold point!

I do respect what benchrest shooters and wildcatters do, in fact their innovations have lead the way in cartridge development it's just not my cup of tea!

Not my "cup of tea" either but different strokes for different folks.

Regarding insects, except for ticks, the black flies are the worse. Those nasty beasties bite! Regarding bladder issues, I pee in the field more than the number shots taken at critters.

 

[David Milisock]

Not my "cup of tea" either but different strokes for different folks.

Regarding insects, except for ticks, the black flies are the worse. Those nasty beasties bite! Regarding bladder issues, I pee in the field more than the number shots taken at critters.

I have learned to lay of the coffee!

 

[mauser284]

My ability to shoot prone and from a bench have declined a lot. I just do not get enough practice since Covid-19.

My ability to shoot off hand with a bolt action rifle though has not diminished that much. having done NRA High Power since Iw as a child I can still shoot off hand as good as anyone. I need a new knee though so gettign up from kneeling is painful sight.

Experince and muscle memory are very real things we get good at what we do a lot of off. Most of my hunting has been down either stalking or sitting no bipod just a sling and maybe shooting sticks.

I like competing and I like eating wild game. I have nothing against either camp a lot of us fall into both camps at various points in our lives. Finances, health, other obligations often side track all of us.

The Mausers are great especially when cheap as an affordable truck gun or tractor rifle I agree 100%. The stock sights can be a limiting factor as you age for some! 7x57 Mauser and 8mm Mauser are 100% meat in the freezer cartridges.