Lil'Gun Powder - .22 Hornet / .17 Hornet (Terrible discrepancies)

[Gunraptor]

I am a huge fan of the .22 Hornet. I currently have 4 rifles. Ruger #1, Winchester 1885, Kimber 82 and a Savage Model 40 Varmitt Hunter... all pretty resent aquasitions. I reload everything. On another blog got a tip to use Lil'Gun and in the beginning I heard nothing but favorable things about this powder such as:
Best Accuracy
almost impossible to overload regarding pressure.

I just recently (1 week ago) purchased a .17 Hornet in a CZ 527 so started to scout for best powders, bullets, Primers, cases.
In doing so I ran across a TON of issued that shooters had with Lil'Gun which shocked the hel out of me as I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.... and I have read same issues from multiple users which again substantiates real concerns.
Some of the concerns were:

very dirty (one used claimed barrel got so bad he had to toss and rebarrel). Thats hard to believe but it's what I read,
Very spikey pressure wise - I have read this MULTIPLE times which would not equate to "accurate loads" for sure...
Someone posted that this powder ran very hot (temp wise) ?? not sure how one would determine that.
premature loose primer pockets because of Lil'gun

So, I have an 8lb jug of this "miracle" powder which I initially purchased for my 4 Hornets but now I would include the new .17 Hornet coming this week.

So now I am at a point of concern regarding using it.... especially regarding the "spikey" pressures. That Savage Model 40 is based/built on a .22 Rimfire action and I would be very concerned pressure wise especially with this gun.

Just since I purchase the .17 Hornet CZ 527 I did lots of scouting regarding handloading supplies and issues. Several on this site have had best results with CFE BLK (Hodgdon), AA1680, AA2200 powders. I have a ton of AA1680 but will buy the other two for sure. I have 2 bricks of Rem 6 1/2 primers which is best for the .22 Hornet and I would imagine would work well in the .17H but I see many use the Rem 7 1/2's. Also have 3 bricks of CCI400 primers which I see many use.

The three heads I will start off with will be the 20 & 25 V-max and the Berger 25 match Varmitt HPFB
I guess Hornady cases will get the toss but I see many warn of huge neck thickness variations so will check/sort if need be.
Heard the free throat on the 527's can be excessive and getting the bullet close to the lands might not be possible. I start .010 off on my 4 Hornet rifles. I plan on getting the Calhoun single feed so don't have to worry about feeding through the magazine.

Redding S-die w/bushing for neck resizing
Wilson In-line bullet seater w/micrometer seater
Fire form the cases then get down to business on the 2nd time around.
Use a Redding balance beam powder scale w/trickler charger to top off. I think this is kind of old school and not sure if I should break down and get a digital powder thrower to speed things up and possibly make more accurate ? I haven't looked to see whats out there.
I don't anneal anything yet but may open that door if I need too.

So, getting back to the Lil'Gun issue.... any suggestions

 

[SeabeeKen]

I have never really had much luck with Lil gun. I've tested with it in several gun and found better more accurate options. According to GRT it burns at 4200 which is among the hottest powders.
I believe most use it because it gives high speeds. In my 22 Hornet, N-110 gave me groups of .196" and an ES of 6.12. Lil gun wasnt even in the ballpark. I also Tested it in a 350 Legend for a friend. In his rifle, again, not even in the ballpark. It gave the best speeds but I want accuracy. Accuracy in his rifle was .096" with 2400 and an ES of 5.2
Lilgun is very hi in nitroglycerin content. I could see it being spikey but I have never experienced it. Double based powders can be spikey especially at low charge weights.

 

[RustyInBend]

Trashed L'il Gun in favor of IMR 4227 in my subsonic 300-AAC loads. Shot OK but the biggest complaint about L'il Gun was that it is very "sticky" inside my ChargeMaster 1500 powder dispenser, and cleaning it out after use was very difficult. There are just better options out there that don't stick to the inside of my dispenser. And "Yes" I keep a used dryer sheet in the powder hopper, and literally every other powder cleanly drops through the exit port after use.

 

[FTR_Mojo]

I would definitely recommend CFE-BLK with the 17 hornet. I use it with 25gr v max, and have excellent accuracy. Hornady brass is meh... but they're the only ones making brass for it as far as I can find.

 

[jds holler]

Every time I handle a little Hornet case, I'm glad that I've got a Bee.
Ima not starting a "which is best" fight, cause I know you Hornet guys are just as crazy as I am.

That being said, almost everyone with either of those cartridges seem very happy with 4227, IMR for me. I suspect that H would be as good also. jd

 

[Seamaster31]

My Hornet loves LilGun, and has been the top powder for me for a fairly long tome. I have seen no problems such as you have seen on the internet boards. However, if you read it on the internet it must be true.

 

[Davers]

I own two .22 Hornet rifles, which I reload for using Lit'Gun. Never had a problem with this powder and always received great accuracy from this powder using 40 to 50 grain bullets.

 

[mike mccormick]

Same as the two before me, I use Lil' gun in my 22 hornet with no complaints at all. Don't really understand the confusion here. A 17 and a 22 are not the same animal. The 17 will need a little slower powder.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

CFE Black is the only powder that will get factory velocities with the 17, and good accuracy. I have had bunnies at 350 yds with that combination. Federal gold primers rock with that load - which is the Hodgdon book max.

 

[Webster]

I am a huge fan of the .22 Hornet. I currently have 4 rifles. Ruger #1, Winchester 1885, Kimber 82 and a Savage Model 40 Varmitt Hunter... all pretty resent aquasitions. I reload everything. On another blog got a tip to use Lil'Gun and in the beginning I heard nothing but favorable things about this powder such as:
Best Accuracy
almost impossible to overload regarding pressure.

I just recently (1 week ago) purchased a .17 Hornet in a CZ 527 so started to scout for best powders, bullets, Primers, cases.
In doing so I ran across a TON of issued that shooters had with Lil'Gun which shocked the hel out of me as I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.... and I have read same issues from multiple users which again substantiates real concerns.
Some of the concerns were:

very dirty (one used claimed barrel got so bad he had to toss and rebarrel). Thats hard to believe but it's what I read,
Very spikey pressure wise - I have read this MULTIPLE times which would not equate to "accurate loads" for sure...
Someone posted that this powder ran very hot (temp wise) ?? not sure how one would determine that.
premature loose primer pockets because of Lil'gun

So, I have an 8lb jug of this "miracle" powder which I initially purchased for my 4 Hornets but now I would include the new .17 Hornet coming this week.

So now I am at a point of concern regarding using it.... especially regarding the "spikey" pressures. That Savage Model 40 is based/built on a .22 Rimfire action and I would be very concerned pressure wise especially with this gun.

Just since I purchase the .17 Hornet CZ 527 I did lots of scouting regarding handloading supplies and issues. Several on this site have had best results with CFE BLK (Hodgdon), AA1680, AA2200 powders. I have a ton of AA1680 but will buy the other two for sure. I have 2 bricks of Rem 6 1/2 primers which is best for the .22 Hornet and I would imagine would work well in the .17H but I see many use the Rem 7 1/2's. Also have 3 bricks of CCI400 primers which I see many use.

The three heads I will start off with will be the 20 & 25 V-max and the Berger 25 match Varmitt HPFB
I guess Hornady cases will get the toss but I see many warn of huge neck thickness variations so will check/sort if need be.
Heard the free throat on the 527's can be excessive and getting the bullet close to the lands might not be possible. I start .010 off on my 4 Hornet rifles. I plan on getting the Calhoun single feed so don't have to worry about feeding through the magazine.

Redding S-die w/bushing for neck resizing
Wilson In-line bullet seater w/micrometer seater
Fire form the cases then get down to business on the 2nd time around.
Use a Redding balance beam powder scale w/trickler charger to top off. I think this is kind of old school and not sure if I should break down and get a digital powder thrower to speed things up and possibly make more accurate ? I haven't looked to see whats out there.
I don't anneal anything yet but may open that door if I need too.

So, getting back to the Lil'Gun issue.... any suggestions

Check out the Varmintal's website. He loves the Hornet. Check out the reloading section. Other areas interesting reading. (VARMINTAL.com).

 

[xr650rRider]

I also found Lil'gun to be very erratic in 22K-Hornet. My good load in 22 Hornet was 12.3 Lil'gun with a 35 V-max. Didn't really chronograph those loads. Converted my 1730 Anschutz to 22-K Hornet and those same loads would have a 500 fps ES. Some were hitting 3500 fps. Now against all logic, increased load to 13.0 grains and in a PPU case, the ES was maybe 75 fps and around 3200 fps average. They shot very well. Same load in Winchester, Hornady or R-P cases and would return to the high velocity swings. All of these were with CCI small rifle primers. My powder was probably 10 years old, so don't know if just the lot but went back to WW-296 in ,which was much more stable. 1680 or CFE blk was maybe slightly more accurate but down about 200-300 fps with case full.

 

[CloudNein]

I have a 17 H as well, I also read about Lil' gun issues on sites like these when I was researching powders. I initially bought the 3 main powders for the cartridge: AA1690, CFE BLK, and Lil' Gun.

Like on many of these sites there's no actual data to backup the issues with Lil' Gun. All I can tell you is that it consistently performed well in my rifle (Shooting for 3650 fps with all powders). 1680 has also performed consistently well. CFE BLK initially gave me 4" groups @ 100 yards! (17 H. is listed on the container label for Christ sake!) That result was so bad I eventually retested, and it came out identical group wise to the other two powders. In fact, all three powders shoot the same group size in my Savage rifle (~ .8").

In Gordon's reloading tool the specific explosive heat value for lil' gun (4200 kJ/kg.) is higher than for 1680/CFEBLK (3900 kJ/kg., identical values). H4350 is also 3900, N140 (N100 series, known to be easy on barrels, is 3600). Take that as you will.

17 H with lil'gun will give you almost ~800 rounds of a 1 pound container, you'll be there for a while.

My research showed 1680 was *the* powder for the 17 H , and CFE BLK was basically a copy of it. If it worries you, I'd stick with those two. You already have 1680, you're set.

 

[dellet]

Lilgun is a powder you have to try for yourself. The online reviews speak for themselves. For the most part I feel the powder is unstable, otherwise the stories would not be so extreme, best ever/almost killed me.

I have probably bought and sold or given away 10 pounds over the years. Always seem to have a pound on hand. Never found anything that couldn’t be loaded for better performance with a different powder.

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that it gets hot. If you shoot long strings, it’s probably not the best choices.

Another clue as to its instabilty would be old loading manuals. For the most part newer manuals tend to reduce charge weights and max loads over the years. Lil’Gun is one of the few powders that has gone up and down over the years using the same components, by the same manufacture.

Try it and see for yourself. Just give it a little more respect for safety.

 

[Kittitas George]

I've tried the Lil'Gun and CFEBLK in my 17 HH, I found the 1680 worked much better. Finding components was more difficult a few years ago. I use the Redding dies for the sizing process and the Vickerman seating die. It really works well with those small bullets and is very easily adjusted.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Cfe blk gave me great velocity in the 17. Accuracy about the same as factory ammo. My friend has a really accurate load with cfe and a lead free bullet. Forget the gr. Never made it to 1680, got a couple lbs.

Care for that brass, its like gold. It took many years for hornady to do a run.

 

[Davers]

Lilgun is a powder you have to try for yourself. The online reviews speak for themselves. For the most part I feel the powder is unstable, otherwise the stories would not be so extreme, best ever/almost killed me.

I have probably bought and sold or given away 10 pounds over the years. Always seem to have a pound on hand. Never found anything that couldn’t be loaded for better performance with a different powder.

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that it gets hot. If you shoot long strings, it’s probably not the best choices.

Another clue as to its instabilty would be old loading manuals. For the most part newer manuals tend to reduce charge weights and max loads over the years. Lil’Gun is one of the few powders that has gone up and down over the years using the same components, by the same manufacture.

Try it and see for yourself. Just give it a little more respect for safety.

I use 11.5 grains of Lil'Gun in my .22 Hornet reloads. This amount of powder seems to result in the best accuracy from my .22 Hornet rifles.

 

[sw282]

Winchester developed 22 Hornet from a black powder ctg before WWII, around a hundred yrs ago. Winchester went to Hercules Powder Company with their new Hornet case. They told Hercules they wanted a smokeless powder that woud power a 45gr bullet to 2400fps. Hercules answered Winchester's request. When this powder became available to reloaders lt was called Hercules 2400. Still works great 1 Good in 44Mag and 357 magnum too!!

 

[DanCarey]

"there's no actual data to backup the issues with Lil' Gun."
I 2nd with that statement. I have a CZ 17H and in the past had several 22H's, I've shot up a several thousand rounds of it and never seen a pressure spike, not to say there has never been one in someone else's rifle. If someone knows where data can be found, I for one would like to see it.

 

[shoot4fun]

Older lots of Lil' Gun and 1680 have been equally good performers in my 17 Ackley Hornet.
I read some of those Lil Gun naysayer reports but never had an issue with it myself. Maybe just a particular lot number. I would think CFE Black would be extremely dirty, as most of those CFE type powders tend to be. Without regular cleaning any barrel can get extremely fouled and, likely, maybe the same guy that "tossed a barrel" is one of those I don't clean folks. I will say in all my years of shooting the 17's it is one I pay close attention to and follow a good cleaning regimen .

 

[Gunraptor]

Appreciate all the posts towards my initial question. Did it clear up anything..... only to the point that, as I initially stated..... some swear by it and some swear at it. I have a new 8# keg so I will try it with kit gloves and pay much attention to pressure. One last question. Out of my 5 gun listed below does anyone know relative chambers strengths and which I should be most concerned about, ie. which has the strongest and which has the weakest. I know some stones have been thrown at the Savage as it was built on their .22 action so I guess that is the one I will monitor the most. Not positive but I believe the Kimber 82 is also built on their .22 action, but not positive. In order of strength ?

Ruger #1 .22 Hornet
Win 1885 .22 Hornet
Kimber 82 .22 Hornet
Savage 40 Varmit Hunter HB - .22 Hornet
CZ 527 American .17 Hornet

Thanks everyone