At 81 years of age, I don't shoot in registered matches anymore. However, I have some friendly competition with several friends. One of these friends asked me to test some pointed bullets against some similar bullets not pointed. These are Berger 105 VLD Target bullets which have been pointed on a Hoover die. I will shoot these at 300 and 600 yards. They will be shot in a 6mm Dasher chambered in a Panda/Krieger 7.5 twist. I will start testing as soon as the weather allows.
What is the point of "Pointing"?
- Thread starter jamesdmock
- Start date
Buttstock-TX
Silver $$ Contributor
Referring specifically to the 7mm Berger 180 hybrid, I see better elevation control at 500 yards in F class matches when I point.
Last edited:
On some bullet profiles pointing the noses or meplats will increase BC a slight amount, meaning 1 to 2% which although minimal is still a bit less wind drift at distance. The main reason people are having success with pointing bullets is that IF done properly the BC variation of the bullets due to inconsistencies of the meplats are diminished and you see less vertical dispersion on targets at long distances.
moondog
Gold $$ Contributor
I've done a little testing as well. Really only bigger stuff, 215s and 300OTMs. For me, if done correctly, it does help with drop at 1000 and beyond. But!, I think I'm seeing better consistency/smaller groups with trimming after pointing.
I'm going to confirm when the weather gets better. Baby it's cold out!!!
I'm going to confirm when the weather gets better. Baby it's cold out!!!
But did it help with a measurable difference
honestly I'm not sure because I've changed a few minor details in my reloading process at the same time so it's difficult to pinpoint that and I never really tested TR & PT vs straight out of the box projectiles plus couple of barrels I had chambered at the time were agg-ing around 1.5-1.7" at 600 yds in competition so there was no reason to further test and burn out my barrels.
FeMan
Gold $$ Contributor
I point my 184 Hybrids that I shoot in ELR light gun. I get the BC up to 0.372 on average. That's worthwhile considering the BC on the box is 0.356.
To test, I shoot over my chronograph and and use my Shotmarker to get velocity at target. I record the atmospheric conditions and then back-calculate the BC of each bullet based on velocity degradation using JBM ballistics. That method is better than trying to use bullet drop as the "noise" of normal shot dispersion and other factors affecting POI are eliminated.
The best lot of 184s I had was very consistent. The SD on the BC was 0.2%. This is consistent enough that, with a tuned rifle, I have 1/2 moa of vertical or less at 1,400 yards. Moondog has convinced me to try trimming along with pointing to try and get the BC variation lower.
I usually do a 20-shot string with a new lot. I dont have any of the larger data sets saved but here is a 5-shot group from last spring to confirm data before the season start.
To test, I shoot over my chronograph and and use my Shotmarker to get velocity at target. I record the atmospheric conditions and then back-calculate the BC of each bullet based on velocity degradation using JBM ballistics. That method is better than trying to use bullet drop as the "noise" of normal shot dispersion and other factors affecting POI are eliminated.
The best lot of 184s I had was very consistent. The SD on the BC was 0.2%. This is consistent enough that, with a tuned rifle, I have 1/2 moa of vertical or less at 1,400 yards. Moondog has convinced me to try trimming along with pointing to try and get the BC variation lower.
I usually do a 20-shot string with a new lot. I dont have any of the larger data sets saved but here is a 5-shot group from last spring to confirm data before the season start.
| Cartridge | 284 GH | |||
| Bullet | 184 | Pointed | ||
| Range | 1005 | |||
| Pressure | 26.89 | |||
| Temp | 58 | |||
| Humidity | 47% | |||
| MV | TV | BC | ||
1 | 2760 | 1741 | 0.368 | |
2 | 2743 | 1746 | 0.375 | |
3 | 2743 | 1748 | 0.374 | |
4 | 2749 | 1747 | 0.373 | |
5 | 2741 | 1746 | 0.374 | |
2747 | ||||
| Avg G7 | 0.373 |
Last edited:
Old Navy
Gold $$ Contributor
Great post!
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
I have trimmed but was hesitant to point. I am not confident that I would not upset the core. Eventually, I stopped trimming.......One thing I do is inspect the boat tail. If there is any deformity or nick in it, your accuracy will quickly go away. If I drop a bullet, I set it aside.......
Regards
Rick
Regards
Rick
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
James to me pointing is one of those things we do to be more consistent and I find less vertical dispersion if I test at longer ranges say 300 or 600 yards with pointed bullets. The benefit is hard to prove unless you test at 1000 yards.
I'm 80 so a little younger than you but I've given up competition shooting. In much better weather and at 100 and 200 yards I've been known to do some testing at a couple of very local ranges. I tend to confine myself to driving on roads I know and less than 30 miles one way. Most of my driving nowadays is to Doctor, hospital or clinic visits and a total of about 1200 miles per year.
I'm 80 so a little younger than you but I've given up competition shooting. In much better weather and at 100 and 200 yards I've been known to do some testing at a couple of very local ranges. I tend to confine myself to driving on roads I know and less than 30 miles one way. Most of my driving nowadays is to Doctor, hospital or clinic visits and a total of about 1200 miles per year.
moondog
Gold $$ Contributor
Very interesting!
How do you gather accurate velocity at the target? I was told not to trust the Shotmarker readings? Never really verified that though. We were thinking of using a " Lab Radar at the Shotmarker to do just that. Reading stuff like this really makes me feel really stupid.
FeMan
Gold $$ Contributor
I am using the Shotmarker velocities. I cannot vouch for their accuracy, but the results are consistent enough that I do have faith that they are fairly accurate. If I plug the resulting BC into my Kestrel (and have everything else correct), my vertical is on-target to a mile or more and usually centered. I am able to ignore the vertical and concentrate solely on the wind.
I believe this method works and is much more reliable than using bullet drop, particularly past 1,000 yards. The reliability of using the bullet drop method has a lot of potential error in it including normal group dispersion, magnus effect variances, wind anomalies, and other factors that can add up shot-to-shot and skew the results. My method has yielded very reliable results when the bullet drop method never did.
Perhaps.
But Sierra--and any other intelligent manufacturer--has a finger constantly on the pulse of their market; some probably browse this very forum, for example.
With concern for biggering their success, if the public believes a given procedure works, and demands it, the company sometimes just provides what the public wants.
We saw that effect with the sorting of rimfire match ammunition, for better scores in rimfire BR and conventional 3P/Prone. Guys WERE producing better scores and groups with careful sorting, so the factories just started doing it for them--and making money to do it--to get things like Tenex, R50, and Midas.
I think pointing and/or trimming is legit, as is bullet sorting for SOME brands/bullets and purposes. I do, because it shows in MY barrels.
But, I always keep the other part in mind as well.
I have been pointing bullets with a Whidden pointer since they came out. 107 SMKs and 105 B Hydrids. U can see the difference at 600 yds. With non-pointed bullets zeroed in the X ring, pointed bullets print 12o’ clock in the 10 ring. If the BC is improved enough to raise the vertical POI, it also improves the horizontal ( drift) as well.
I see pointed bullets shoot rounder groups.
I see pointed bullets shoot rounder groups.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.