Help for a Hornet (hopefully)

[RGRobinett]

Here are a couple of pics regarding the 22Hornet proceedings - the HW 52 stuff is to display the tendency for "central thickening", or, almost trying to group respectably. The Win. 1885 shoots about the same, albiet via a different powder . . . and the Winchester falling-block tolerates much more pressure - that is, it extracts even maximum "book" loads. The HW 52 and the Ruger 77 have relatively weak extractors.

Following firing, neither of the falling-block actions produce cases with primer protrusion - that is why I have included/referenced them: fired case result in flush primer : case-head face. On the other hand, the Ruger 77/22Hornet, with the "as is" factory bolt/ head-space, produces [fired] primer protrusion of 0.008" to 0.010". Installing a shim, which makes for ZERO bolt-nose to barrel face [clearance] reduces the protrusion to between 0.005" and 0.006" - at best, undesirably excessive. See above.

Following Al completing the bedding job, as compared to before, the average (for 5-shot 100 Yd. groups) has been reduced by about 38% - this via almost every powder tested. Per Steve Kostinach (post #10, above), the bedded 77/Hornet has taken a liking to Win.680 (1978 vintage), but still, lacks any "WOW" factor . . . compared to the two-pieced stock rifles, just mediocre patterns.

So, the next step, as Al and I have discussed will be to "Ackleyize", or, K this barrel, in an attempt to determine if the head-space is affecting precision, or, if the lack thereof is simply a mediocre barrel (not unlikely). At least, the two-piece stocked rifles, which I am likely "ham-handing", ARE TRYING to shoot groups! Grouping for both the Weihrauch, and the Winchester were reduced by making and installing pillar-bedded for-ends but still get a "flier" on almost every group! For, "what they are", I can live with the results . . . a bolt action - even a factory deal- should do WAY better than this Ruger - it doesn't even try. RG

This target: 200 Yd. NBRSA score, shot @ 100 Yd.: 1/2" ring spacing.

This target: aiming squares = 3/4" with 1/4" ring spacing. Oh - that "B-$" should have been, 40% of B-4 bedding!

P.S. If you can name a [suitable burn-rate] powder, and some which are border-line, I've probably provided them an opportunity to perform in these Hornets. I'm finding them frustrating, but interesting - a new challenge. None of the three are particularly fond of Lil'Gun, which seems to be the contemporary, "go to" powder.

 

[luckyshot52]

If you haven’t tried Hodgdon Lil Gun, be sure to try it. Works great for hornet & K hornets.

 

[Mike Casselton]

H-110 with either a 35 or 40gr V-Max has shot well in a lot of 22 Hornets for me.

 

[Davers]

If you haven’t tried Hodgdon Lil Gun, be sure to try it. Works great for hornet & K hornets.

I've found that Lil'Gun to be the ideal powder for the .22 Hornet.

 

[xr650rRider]

One thing I ran into a couple months back with Lil'gun, at least the lot I have (12-15 years old), is very inconsistent velocity with lighter loads. I was fireforming cases from Hornet to K-Hornet. My normal Hornet load was 12.3 grains Lil'gun with 35 grain V-max. Shot well at 100 yards. That same load in K-Hornet formed cases would see velocity swings of 400 fps, some > 3500 fps. Hodgdon data shows 14.5 grains as being max in K-Hornet. So going against normal thought process, loads in PRVI cases of 13.0 stopped the wild swings and velocity dropped to around 3200 fps average. It took 13.5 grains in Hornady, RP and Winchester cases to stop the swings.

******** Edit *********
Noticed now Hodgdon website shows Lil'run 13.5 grain as max load with 35 grain V-max. A month ago, it listed 14.5. I wondered how they got 14.5 in the case. Supposedly Lil'gun generates higher velocity with a lot lower pressure. Seems unlikely but they have the pressure sensors.

 

[LVLAaron]

My understanding of 296,110, etc is that they need pretty stout/full case loads to ignite properly

 

[msalm]

I had a Krico bolt in 22 Hornet years ago that I foolishly traded off for something shiny. Using the Hornady 35gr vmax (the very rounded point low bc one) it shot extremely well. Anything else was quite poor. I think Win 296/h110 was the powder of choice.

Only thing I shot with it was a beautiful red fox one winter when I took our beagle for a walk in the river bottom behind the house at the time. I squealed away on a mouth call for a bit and this red came running in and when it saw the beagle sniffing around put the brakes on and sat down and cocked its head. That little bullet wasn’t little enough as it went in center chest and tore a 4” gash in the center of its back on the way out…very disappointing as it was my first fox! Went down the rabbit hole into 17’s shortly after but really only shot coyotes after that. Nowadays I just enjoy watching foxes and hunt the coyotes.

 

[ELR LVR]

My pal R.G. Robinett loves his 22 Hornets. This one has been a problem child...a Ruger 77. At times, it's shown promise. Randy has done all the usual fixes to it (shimmed bolt, etc, etc) but it still likes to toss a flyer or two. He was able to buy an extra factory stock for it that had been pillar bedded by a guru in the small caliber shooting world. Savvy move as that would allow for some experimentation w/o whittling up the nice original factory walnut stock. Accuracy testing with the replacement stock proved disappointing and he decided I probably couldn't mess it up any worse than it already was.

Checking the barrel movement initially using the Ted Hunter checker proved revealing.
Zero'd:

Front action screw just cracked loose:

With the barrelled action removed, clearly there are issues. The 'guru' used 5/16" roll pins as pillars and then apparently drilled them afterward for screw clearance. A tight fitting gauge pin in the action screw threads shows the extent of the wonkiness:

The trigger guard shows how far off things were. The front action screws shows how hard the screw was making contact with the 'pillar':

Things got a little more interesting at this point. In order to clean up and straighten out the pillar holes, I had to go to 3/8" for the 12-24 action screws. A few mill shots..you can see how far off things were by the look of the rear pillar as it came out:

Holllly Frijoles! Spring Roll Pins as Pillars? I'd say it would've simply been better to not use pillars?
No wonder guys don't get impressed much anymore when a Guru says he's been doing something all his life
(Which, Don't mean a guy has been doing it correctly all his life)

 

[ELR LVR]

Coming back around to this. Randy had the gun out recently and reports that the bedding rework has reigned in the wild fliers and group sizes have decreased by around 40%. It's a fun project to be involved in...more yet to come.

It's too bad there's not a BR quality little single shot bolt action specifically with the Hornet's bolt face. It would be fun to do like Steve Kostanich did and test the limits of the 'K' Hornet with a modern approach. An action like that made up into a little 6.5 lb hunting rig would be pretty slick.

Good shootin' -Al

For a single shot, A Ruger No.1/ No.3 could be used so as to not worry about bolt face

 

[ISS]

Ron Long did me a HiWall, yes HiWall, not a cutdown Low Wall model in Hornet about forty years ago. It had the close coupled DST's. It shot in the 5/8th range at 100, and just under 2" at 200. Foolishly, I traded it for a 77 in Hornet. Same issues as this one.
These days I shoot a Borchardt with Argus Barker's DST conversion. Little bigger round, a 25-35 Winchester, and another in 6.5x57R(Rimmed) with Hugo Borchardt's goofy DST set up.

ISS

 

[dellet]

Here are a couple of pics regarding the 22Hornet proceedings - the HW 52 stuff is to display the tendency for "central thickening", or, almost trying to group respectably. The Win. 1885 shoots about the same, albiet via a different powder . . . and the Winchester falling-block tolerates much more pressure - that is, it extracts even maximum "book" loads. The HW 52 and the Ruger 77 have relatively weak extractors.

Following firing, neither of the falling-block actions produce cases with primer protrusion - that is why I have included/referenced them: fired case result in flush primer : case-head face. On the other hand, the Ruger 77/22Hornet, with the "as is" factory bolt/ head-space, produces [fired] primer protrusion of 0.008" to 0.010". Installing a shim, which makes for ZERO bolt-nose to barrel face [clearance] reduces the protrusion to between 0.005" and 0.006" - at best, undesirably excessive. See above.

Following Al completing the bedding job, as compared to before, the average (for 5-shot 100 Yd. groups) has been reduced by about 38% - this via almost every powder tested. Per Steve Kostinach (post #10, above), the bedded 77/Hornet has taken a liking to Win.680 (1978 vintage), but still, lacks any "WOW" factor . . . compared to the two-pieced stock rifles, just mediocre patterns.

So, the next step, as Al and I have discussed will be to "Ackleyize", or, K this barrel, in an attempt to determine if the head-space is affecting precision, or, if the lack thereof is simply a mediocre barrel (not unlikely). At least, the two-piece stocked rifles, which I am likely "ham-handing", ARE TRYING to shoot groups! Grouping for both the Weihrauch, and the Winchester were reduced by making and installing pillar-bedded for-ends but still get a "flier" on almost every group! For, "what they are", I can live with the results . . . a bolt action - even a factory deal- should do WAY better than this Ruger - it doesn't even try. RG

This target: 200 Yd. NBRSA score, shot @ 100 Yd.: 1/2" ring spacing.
View attachment 1629447
This target: aiming squares = 3/4" with 1/4" ring spacing. Oh - that "B-$" should have been, 40% of B-4 bedding!
View attachment 1629448
P.S. If you can name a [suitable burn-rate] powder, and some which are border-line, I've probably provided them an opportunity to perform in these Hornets. I'm finding them frustrating, but interesting - a new challenge. None of the three are particularly fond of Lil'Gun, which seems to be the contemporary, "go to" powder.

I shoot a K Hornet, 1885. The harder I push it, he smaller the groups get, 1680 for a powder. I also suffer from an unconventional way of problem solving.

With primers backing out, it sounds like not enough pressure. Enough to stick the case to the chamber walls, not enough to stretch the case. The problem is you already have extraction problems. Is it possible there is a flaw in the chamber?

Treat it like a shouldered cartridge, the beauty of a falling block is your not limited to magazine length. Have you tried loading the Ruger single shot?
Load to a jam, zero headspace. Fire forming to your chamber and minimal resize. No reason to shim the bolt. It should answer your headspace question without any modifications to the rifle.

I would try a slower powder, not faster, simply because of the extraction problem. I’ve actually had good luck with LT 30, highly compressed. CFE BLK, but it’s loud. You lose velocity, but may gain accuracy with a slower powder.

The reason for dropping pressure is to keep the case from grabbing the chamber and primers backing out which is common with a rimmed cartridge. Something I’ve noted shooting low pressure loads. There is a progression of primers backing out then seating.
Low pressure, primer backs out, case does not stick and blows back to reseat the primer.
Medium pressure primer backs out, case sticks, primers stays backed out.
High pressure, primer backs out, case sticks then stretches to seat the primer.
The Hornet SAAMI pressure is in that medium pressure range, just like a 30-30.

Keeping in mind most rimmed cartridges were designed of black powder pressures and it helps me approach things a little different.

Probably nothing new in any of those thoughts, but maybe something you haven’t tried with this rifle.

 

[brokeasajoke]

My 77/22H (k version now) hates lil'gun. Of all I tried 1680 is my powder now. I've shot a few cast in it but I used trailboss and accuracy was poor.

 

[FNSafari]

Al, have you tried the 35 grain Hornady VMAX bullet? A friend has a CZ hornet and it is the only bullet it will shoot accurately, like three shots from a cold barrel in .65/.70" at 100 yda. Anything, and I mean anything, heavier(longer) is in the 1.25/1.50" range. It is a 16 twist but I wonder if it might be a hair slower?