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Electric Cars -- anyone own one?

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ebb said:
You mean that the battery compartment would be 6 inches down in the snow? Making the batteries even colder and less able to preform at a level that is promised by the maker?
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do you realize those are lithium batteries? Most heigh end electronics went to lithium long ago, as one of the benefits of lithium is how efficient they are in the cold! Another benefit is low center of gravity, something very important when designing vehicles. But I highly doubt your talking any real disadvantage because of temperature. But a huge advantage in more areas that this location gives much more advantages.
 
wildcatter said:
do you realize those are lithium batteries? Most heigh end electronics went to lithium long ago, as one of the benefits of lithium is how efficient they are in the cold! Another benefit is low center of gravity, something very important when designing vehicles. But I highly doubt your talking any real disadvantage because of temperature. But a huge advantage in more areas that this location gives much more advantages.
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Actually the batteries themselves lose 5-10% effectiveness starting when temps drop below around 40. They also take longer to charge. But the real story is not the battery per se.

The big problem is driving them in comfort. Mechanical issues such as keeping the battery warm in models that have climate controls for the battery will drain the battery while parked, same as cooling in high heat. Then the cab heater, defroster, wipers normal cold weather accessories take a toll. Then there is the traction and rolling resistance of driving through snow. You’re more likely to engage every motor and be in all wheel drive mode more often. Dedicated snow tires will cost you another 10-15% simply because of higher rolling resistance on a dry road.

With proper tires they can get around great in light snow, the wet heavy stuff is a different story. One issue is the solid floor pan. It’s easier to high center, kind of like the difference between regular boots and snowshoes.

My customers report as much as 50% loss of range in the winter, some even more. Sub zero weather, a foot of snow and a 2 mile drive to a paved road is common, as are EV’s parked in the garage more often than not in the winter.
 
dellet said:
Actually the batteries themselves lose 5-10% effectiveness starting when temps drop below around 40. They also take longer to charge. But the real story is not the battery per se.

The big problem is driving them in comfort. Mechanical issues such as keeping the battery warm in models that have climate controls for the battery will drain the battery while parked, same as cooling in high heat. Then the cab heater, defroster, wipers normal cold weather accessories take a toll. Then there is the traction and rolling resistance of driving through snow. You’re more likely to engage every motor and be in all wheel drive mode more often. Dedicated snow tires will cost you another 10-15% simply because of higher rolling resistance on a dry road.

With proper tires they can get around great in light snow, the wet heavy stuff is a different story. One issue is the solid floor pan. It’s easier to high center, kind of like the difference between regular boots and snowshoes.

My customers report as much as 50% loss of range in the winter, some even more. Sub zero weather, a foot of snow and a 2 mile drive to a paved road is common, as are EV’s parked in the garage more often than not in the winter.
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Oh, you mean the same things we deal with using fossil fuel engines, heaters, fans, air conditioning, cold weather startups and driving, etc etc. Its a vehicle, they don't always get used at 65 degrees and low humidity.

The high center can be said about my HHR, there is a reason I drive my Z71 in the winter, and park the HHR. Don't get me wrong, there are advantages and disadvantages to every vehicle made. Plus, this like the early days before the Model A with electric cars, but since the model A we've come a long ways baby. Some day the same will be said for electric. Hopefully be then, hydrogen is powering your vehicles, but by then, they won't even give me a drivers license anymore, if I'm still here. Until they do take it, I think my HHR and My Silverado will be the last vehicles I have to worry about. But trust me,like your saying, they both have a place and time to use them.
 
wildcatter said:
Oh, you mean the same things we deal with using fossil fuel engines, heaters, fans, air conditioning, cold weather startups and driving, etc etc. Its a vehicle, they don't always get used at 65 degrees and low humidity.

The high center can be said about my HHR, there is a reason I drive my Z71 in the winter, and park the HHR. Don't get me wrong, there are advantages and disadvantages to every vehicle made. Plus, this like the early days before the Model A with electric cars, but since the model A we've come a long ways baby. Some day the same will be said for electric. Hopefully be then, hydrogen is powering your vehicles, but by then, they won't even give me a drivers license anymore, if I'm still here. Until they do take it, I think my HHR and My Silverado will be the last vehicles I have to worry about. But trust me,like your saying, they both have a place and time to use them.
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Pretty much the same only different.
Long fuel lines and refill times like the 70’s if you don’t have a charger at home or are on the road.
Short driving ranges like when cars and truck held 20 gallons if you were really lucky and got no more than 20 mpg.
Satellite radios that have 200 channels that all go quiet under a bridge and in cities with a lot of tall buildings, just like AM radio.

Biggest change seems to be that we used to have dumb cars and smart drivers, now we have smart cars.
Best thing is that now I can run my car from my phone, as long as I have service.

Most of the above applies to EV and ICE cars any more. Just seems like all the gadgets come at the cost of reliability past 100k miles. The faster technology changes, the faster it becomes obsolete.

I won’t really argue for or against the EV as an option. As long as it’s only an option. They are not nearly as ecologically friendly as most people think, if you consider the lifespan from raw material to recycle, they really aren’t any better than what we have now.

Basically same mistakes, different ball game.
 
jackieschmidt said:
Just for everyone’s info, my Electric Chevy Bolt EUV has lost about 20% of its charging capacity during the cold winter.

That means instead of the summertime charge at around 250 miles, it charges to around 200 miles.

It’s no big deal to me.
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I don't have a dog in this fight because I will never own an electric vehicle. But to be fair, I believe that you live in Texas. Do EV owners in much colder climates such as ND or Montana lose more than 20% of the charging capacity in the winter?
 
Back in the "good ol days" we had a lot of rigs that had twenty gallon (or smaller) tanks, and only got 12-16 miles per gallon, (or less). But back in those "good old days", there was a gas station on every block in town, and about every 30 miles on any main highway.

Every mom and pop market in the middle of nowhere had a pump, and they were EVERYWHERE. And all of us who went anywhere sketchy, had JEEP cans, and it didn't take three guys to use one of them. :rolleyes:

I think the main problem with EV's is that most folks expect them to fill the same niche that ICE have, and they can't always do that. Someday they might, but we're not there yet. jd
 
Gman said:
I don't have a dog in this fight because I will never own an electric vehicle. But to be fair, I believe that you live in Texas. Do EV owners in much colder climates such as ND or Montana lose more than 20% of the charging capacity in the winter?
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Ask the people in Norway. Norway is BIG on EVs.
 
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dellet said:
Pretty much the same only different.
Long fuel lines and refill times like the 70’s if you don’t have a charger at home or are on the road.
Short driving ranges like when cars and truck held 20 gallons if you were really lucky and got no more than 20 mpg.
Satellite radios that have 200 channels that all go quiet under a bridge and in cities with a lot of tall buildings, just like AM radio.

Biggest change seems to be that we used to have dumb cars and smart drivers, now we have smart cars.
Best thing is that now I can run my car from my phone, as long as I have service.

Most of the above applies to EV and ICE cars any more. Just seems like all the gadgets come at the cost of reliability past 100k miles. The faster technology changes, the faster it becomes obsolete.

I won’t really argue for or against the EV as an option. As long as it’s only an option. They are not nearly as ecologically friendly as most people think, if you consider the lifespan from raw material to recycle, they really aren’t any better than what we have now.

Basically same mistakes, different ball game.
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Wow I looked to see where you were from, it sure aint here. We used to have good cars and the only thing that pizzed me off driving was dumb drivers, now we have dumb drivers and even dumber ones on smart phones! Then to make it even worse, new cars that are so smart they have to make comments about my driving when I'm already pizzed off about the dumb driver around me on their smart phone.

Seems to me we are loosing this battle with smart BS, all the way around. I wish I could find an original 91 3/4 ton suburban with a big block, and less than 10K miles on it, then I'd put a cattle bar on the front and not worry about the vehicle or the smart azz on his smart phone, I'd do like I used to, just drive. Then when it needs maintenance by that time they'd quit giving me a license anyways,,,, sorry, but no, they don't make like they used to. To many lights and messages to check this do that change this. That old suburban got new brakes at 100,000 mile with new plugs, and oil and filter every 20K or once a year with top grade Amsoil, did the tranny and the diffs the same time, and at 200.000k sold it and got a 99,,,, things were not better. Today, well I wish I had another new 91!
 
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wildcatter said:
do you realize those are lithium batteries? Most heigh end electronics went to lithium long ago, as one of the benefits of lithium is how efficient they are in the cold! Another benefit is low center of gravity, something very important when designing vehicles. But I highly doubt your talking any real disadvantage because of temperature. But a huge advantage in more areas that this location gives much more advantages.
Click to expand...
As someone who spent a baker's dozen years in batteries before calling it quits (the last 7 at a FAANG), the reaction kinetics go down the toilet at around 10C. Slamming a battery pack with a fast charging station in cold weather is even worse, far worse. No commercially available battery chemistry delivers more than 65% of its rated capacity when fast charged in cold weather temps. And I've benchmarked them all.

don't get me started on solid state batteries, grifters paradise...
 
Gman said:
I don't have a dog in this fight because I will never own an electric vehicle. But to be fair, I believe that you live in Texas. Do EV owners in much colder climates such as ND or Montana lose more than 20% of the charging capacity in the winter?
Click to expand...
I live in Montana and customers often report well over 50% reduction in range. It largely depends on type of driving. The number one mission of EV is to protect the battery, cold kills batteries.

Charging a cold battery can ruin it, so charging is prevented until it warms up. Leave home with a fully charged battery leave it in the parking lot in single digit weather all day and your charge level will be reduced. If it’s equipped with climate control for the battery, it could be significantly reduced. Topping off on the way home, will depend where the charging station is located. You have to drive long enough to warm the battery, while also have enough range left on the battery to make it to the station. This was a huge problem last winter in the Midwest. People running out of charge, waiting for a charger to open. Charge time also takes longer in cold weather.

There are other cold weather charging issues that can be dangerous if a driver isn’t paying attention. If the battery is too cold to accept a charge, regenerative braking is disabled. Manual braking still works normally, but letting off the accelerator essentially puts the car in neutral. EV’s by nature are very low resistance rolling. if you expect the car to lose speed on its own, get ready for a surprise.

Probably the worst thing you can do with an EV is a day of shopping in subzero weather. Short drives with long stops, the battery never warms up enough to be charged. Because the car never runs long enough to warm the battery and allow charging, it stays in heat mode which is probably the highest draw possible on the system. Doesn’t take very long to run down the battery that way. Kind of like unplugging your alternator and going Christmas shopping in a blizzard.

Keeping it on a charger and warm is key during cold weather in a place like Montana. With common winter power outages that can last a day or two, a battery that may be ruined in 24 hours of sub zero weather, may not be the best choice. Although if your car was fully charged when the power stopped, you might be able to power your house for a day or so with it.

Not really related to charging, but different driving styles and issues also come up. Traction or lack of plays out a little differently. Because of weight and torque, slick surfaces can be a problem. Easy to break loose under both acceleration and stopping. With the regenerative braking set on the highest level, simply letting off the accelerator can cause the car to slide on ice. Turning the those big magnetic motors takes traction. Teslas are known for a quirk that with traction control on, without a good winter tire, they can’t get going on ice. The system is designed to not let tires spin, it works too well. You basically turn off traction control to get traction. Proper tires and a different driving style are required. “EV driving tips in Canada during winter” is an enlightening search and read.

Comparing EV use in Montana to Norway would be a joke, but all the numbers are readily available for comparison.
Geographically the land area difference is just over 1000 square miles, around 148,000. Norway has about 5 times as many people at 5.5 million and has about 750,000 EV’s out of 2.8 million, with around 30,000 charging stations.
In Norway diesel is still king out numbering gas, electric and hybrid.

Montana boasts a whopping 125 charging stations to serve about 4000 registered EV’s, out of roughly 2,000,000 registered vehicles In the state, as of 2022. Side note is that Montana has the most registered vehicles per capita in the United States.

EV’s in Montana amount to about .2% of what’s on the road, even less in the winter for a reason.

By comparison Canada has roughly 30,000 chargers (same as Norway) spread across 3.8 million square miles as of 2023 for 350,000 vehicles.

Lots of things to consider for an EV in the great white north.
 
Not exactly an EV but California is waging war on gas leaf blowers and I saw my first commercial back pack style leaf blower the other day, of course being used by a county employee. He said the battery will last almost an hour then he swaps it out for another one, get this.... that costs $1,300 ! He said he is somewhat scared that he is going to get robbed of his ~$2,000 piece of equipment(this is in Los Angeles County so you are rolling the dice). This isn't the one he had but this Milwaukee is almost $2K with only one battery.
No thanks.

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My neighbor gave me a very economical gas powered "back pack" type before he died. He aint blowing leaves any more. It's a Ryobi, and it really blows. It'l blow the lips off a chicken, it'l blow the shingles off the roof, it'l blow the apples along with the leaves. It damn near blows the boards off the fence. That sob really blows!

I can't imagine ever stepping back to whatever limp wristed, half measure, poor excuse for a blower they might have invented that relies on a battery pack. jd
 
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