Help for a Hornet (hopefully)

[AlNyhus]

My pal R.G. Robinett loves his 22 Hornets. This one has been a problem child...a Ruger 77. At times, it's shown promise. Randy has done all the usual fixes to it (shimmed bolt, etc, etc) but it still likes to toss a flyer or two. He was able to buy an extra factory stock for it that had been pillar bedded by a guru in the small caliber shooting world. Savvy move as that would allow for some experimentation w/o whittling up the nice original factory walnut stock. Accuracy testing with the replacement stock proved disappointing and he decided I probably couldn't mess it up any worse than it already was.

Checking the barrel movement initially using the Ted Hunter checker proved revealing.
Zero'd:

Front action screw just cracked loose:

With the barrelled action removed, clearly there are issues. The 'guru' used 5/16" roll pins as pillars and then apparently drilled them afterward for screw clearance. A tight fitting gauge pin in the action screw threads shows the extent of the wonkiness:

The trigger guard shows how far off things were. The front action screws shows how hard the screw was making contact with the 'pillar':

Things got a little more interesting at this point. In order to clean up and straighten out the pillar holes, I had to go to 3/8" for the 12-24 action screws. A few mill shots..you can see how far off things were by the look of the rear pillar as it came out:

 

[AlNyhus]

Continued:

With the nastiness out of the way, the next issue was that of a recoil surface. Ruger's idea uses the front action screw metal tab to engage a lip on the receiver. The trigger guard assy hooks into the receiver and cantilevers everything to the rear to mate the recoil lug angles. Nice theory but angles being angles and castings being castings...nothing fits. Essentially, the only recoil management was the action screws...which were all sorts of jacked up in the pillars. Here's how it's supposed to look in Ruger's idea:

I made this mock up spacer at the exact height the tab needed to be...you can see the daylight between the two surfaces:

Anyway....we decided to use two .125" pins for the recoil surface. I used a .118" end mill for a nice interference fit and a bit of Henkel sleeve retainer compound. The pins fit into recesses in the stock and were bedded with Pro Bed:

The rotating magazine clearance is fairly critical. The front screw plate and trigger guard were also bedded to the stock:

Lots of casting flash on the investment cast receiver...just a sample of the deburring:

Final bedding check shows a marked improvement:
Zero'd:

Action screw loosened:

I went off the reservation a bit tidying up the stock and gave the checkered panels a bit of Sako-esqe panache by darkening them:

It"ll be interesting to see how it responds to this. Hornets being Hornets...they are fussy little things. But Randy has become pretty savvy in their sneaky ways! At the very least, this should provide a good platform for some further work (can you say "K-Hornet"?). Hell...knowing Hornets, it might shoot worse after being 'fixed' !

Good shootin' (hopefully) -Al

 

[RGRobinett]

This particular action also features an irritating [excessive] head-space issue: even with the the bolt-body shimmed to ZERO clearance between the bolt-face & the barrel-face, primers back out of the pockets 0.005-0.006"!! With a rimmed cartridge, does this reduce precision potential?!? Al and I have kicked this around the block a couple of times . . .

With a rimmed cartridge, the head-space isn't a BIG deal . . . or, is it - both my Win 1885 and Weihrauch 52 "out shoot" this Ruger 77/22 Hornet, and, via both, the primers are, at worst, flush with the case-head: not backed-out of the pockets. The 77's head-space issue will be easy enough to correct.

Al was/is all in on testing via eliminating the bedding issue first, then, I'll correct the H.S. to see if that measurably affects the precision - I'm betting on the bedding making a marked improvement, and the latter merely "fixing" an annoying mechanical issue.

As usual, following inspection, Al came up with some great ideas for a soundly bedded platform. RG

 

[Judd]

Top shelf work, as always. Looks great Al!

 

[Carl S]

Nice job Al.

 

[LVLAaron]

I like the roll pin. Use what ya got.

 

[mike mccormick]

Would love to see the results on paper. So many of the hornets seem to be poorly stocked, causing loads of problems.

 

[xr650rRider]

At the very least, this should provide a good platform for some further work (can you say "K-Hornet"?).

I just finished converting an Anschutz 22 Hornet to K Hornet. If nothing else for the extra case life. Fire-forming loads shooting as good as it did originally.

 

[Keith Kilby]

I deal with rimmed cases almost daily. Big issue with headspacing off rims is lack of consistency. Pretty easy to find a single case with different rim thicknesses at each compass point…much less the variation throughout the lot. An old single shot falling block technique is to face all the rims to a common number then recut primer pockets with a uniformer. Randy, if you do the cases first you can then set the headspace to match I’m not sure what improvements you may see. I deal mainly with original design high and low walls. As long as you accommodate for thickest rim in your “headspace” math everything seems to work fine.

 

[Steve Kostanich]

Al,
I have to tell you my Hornet story!!
30 years ago on a whim, I decided to see if I could convert an old military 98 Mauser to Hornet, since I had just done a K-Hornet for a customer and had the reamer. Yep a huge action for a tiny cartridge!
I bushed the bolt face and modified the extractor for Hornet. Fitted an old Douglas 22 barrel, bedded it into a 1960's style Shilen laminated BR stock, and mounted an old Leupold scope Wally Siebert had converted to 30x.
Shooting Nosler 40 gr, BT's and some 42 gr flat base I made, I took it out to see if it worked. The load was as much Win. 680 as I could get in the case. I fired 9 five shot groups split between the two bullets. I was elated, the 9 groups averaged .440"moa.. Never figured a Hornet could shoot 1/2"groups. I take it out about every 5 years just to fun shoot it. The last time out, about 2 years ago, that load with my 42 gr. bullet shot a .171" group! A real freak that will probably never happen again, but what a thrill.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich

 

[RGRobinett]

Steve, you are justifiably happy with your results! What twist rate did you use?!!? THAT is a big issue with most .22 Hornet barrels, as SAAMI call for 1:16", which is what most rifle manufacturers use. The Ruger 77/22Hornet barrel is close to 1:14", which is ok, but not ideal for bullets based upon the .705" jackets. The 77, even with the short/light bullets & 14" twist, has been a disappointment. I was fortunate to score the second factory stock, which Al has bedded, and saved the original stock as delivered from the factory.

For the falling-block rifles, I made a bunch of 37 Gr. bullets of a length suitable for the 1:16" twist rates, which reduced group sizes - still, they deliver 5-shot groups (100 Yd.) between 5/8Ths and 3/4". Should the bedding, and then, correcting the head-space fail to deliver acceptable precision, I'll re-chamber to K-Hornet . . . it an interesting/enjoyable project.

I remain amazed, that to this day, the manufacturers did/have not revamp(ed) the SAAMI spec to call for "proper" center-fire .224 dimensions (.218-.219" bore/.224 groove) and twist rates: 1:12' to 1:14"range. Had this been done, the Hornet would likely have garnered a larger following. The Hornets have been entertaining, challenging, and don't rattle the neighbors coffee cups! RG

P.S. edited to clarify: 22Hornet SAAMI spec groove Dia. is .222 - .2225" - while not a wreck with .224 bullets, by increasing the bullet length (it's gotta get longer to pass through the smaller diameter barrel) it further weakens an already anemic twist rate.

 

[Steve Kostanich]

RG,
It's a 14 twist barrel. The bullets I made are on a .640" jacket. With the 680 powder, the velocity is remarkable. It is way above what I expected a K-Hornet to deliver. I won't say 'cause no one would believe me. It was done years ago on an Oehler 35P which may have been out of calibration.
I tried .705"length bullets, and they did not shoot nearly as well as the .640". You wouldn't think .065" length difference would amount to much performance difference.

Steve

 

[RGRobinett]

RG,
It's a 14 twist barrel. The bullets I made are on a .640" jacket. With the 680 powder, the velocity is remarkable. It is way above what I expected a K-Hornet to deliver. I won't say 'cause no one would believe me. It was done years ago on an Oehler 35P which may have been out of calibration.
I tried .705"length bullets, and they did not shoot nearly as well as the .680". You wouldn't think .025" length difference would amount to much performance difference.

Steve

Via .224/.243 and a FB bullet, that (about 0.030" longer/shorter) is about equivalent to 1" of twist rate difference!! For the Win. 1885 and the Weihrauch 52 (both 1:16" twist), I pinched the jackets to .560", which, should, at sea-level/Std conditions, produce Sg of 1.5.

Your [Hornet] bullets, based upon a .640 jacket, would be about equivalent to using a 1:12" twist to shoot the [typical] .705"/52 gr. .224 Cal. jacketed bullets, which, is in the same ballpark as the short 6mm bullets (also .640" long??) which you mentioned (possibly on a different forum) in another recent post. Yep, as Mike Walker advised way back at the onset of the .825"/6mm J4 jackets, shorter is better!
RG

 

[Steve Kostanich]

RG
Yes I posted on another forum lamenting the absence of .750" 6mm jacket availability, and how well they shot in a 14 twist. I have 2000 .750" jackets left to make bullets, when they're gone on to 13.5" 0r 13" twist barrels.

Steve

 

[JSH]

Seeing this thread brings up a few old headaches. An old boss bought one of the SS grey 22 hornets, a fine looking rig. Just never could get it to shoot, but about some what acceptable.
Forward about 30+ years and I acquired a Savage Model 40 22 Hornet. Read a lot of how terrible and weak they were. It turned out to be a pretty good shooter, even with cast.
A fellow alway likes to think he is trading up, so I swapped into a CZ. The silly twist and bore size, I found myself hustling back to the gun shop to get my Savage back. Luckily it had not sold.
It is now back in its home stable.

 

[luckyshot52]

Years ago I spent a lot of time tuning hornets. Max load of Lil Gun powder and 39 blitz always seemed to work. BUT K was so much better I never looked back.
Randy, if U don’t have a K reamer I can loan you one.

 

[luckyshot52]

Al, very nice work on re-bedding. As a gunsmith I am some times amazed at what some people do to rifles.

 

[AlNyhus]

Coming back around to this. Randy had the gun out recently and reports that the bedding rework has reigned in the wild fliers and group sizes have decreased by around 40%. It's a fun project to be involved in...more yet to come.

It's too bad there's not a BR quality little single shot bolt action specifically with the Hornet's bolt face. It would be fun to do like Steve Kostanich did and test the limits of the 'K' Hornet with a modern approach. An action like that made up into a little 6.5 lb hunting rig would be pretty slick.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jkohler]

Al BAT offered the SV in a hornet bolt face but I believe there discontinuing that model now.

 

[AlNyhus]

Al BAT offered the SV in a hornet bolt face but I believe there discontinuing that model now.

Yes...the Hornet model has been dc'd. PT&G at one time offered a Hornet bolt face Model 7 and 700 bolt too.