Learning to shoot with wind flags

[6ShotsOr5?]

Not an expert, are you saying none of the best shooters hold off on a shot? I would think that sometimes you don't have a choice. You ideal condition may never happen again in the time alloted for your target time. Many times I hear guys say the condition changed so they shoot at the sight bull to see where i goes.

Once at the Super Shoot I stood behind Tony Boyer and watched the flags and when he shot. Not sure what I got out of it but Tony had to be the best at wind reading. Buy his book.

You are correct that shooters have to know how to hold because we can’t always wait for a lull. In one 200 yd match that I shot in last year we had a steady left wind that only varied from about 10-12 mph for the whole seven minutes. The amount of hold required varies according to each shooters own rifle and ammunition but it’s safe to say that everybody that was hitting the ten ring consistently in that match was holding anywhere from near the edge of the target to slightly beyond the edge of the target.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I am early in the process of learning to shoot better in the wind and to use wind flags, and besides getting out there and just gaining experience by shooting, would appreciate it if some of you guys who have been doing it for a while now could provide some tips and other sources of information that have helped you out in the past such as forum threads, you tube videos, links to good articles, magazines and books etc..

So far, I am finding that the number of questions coming up exceeds the insights I have gained. Right now I am looking out the window watching a wind flag that I set up in my back yard in a swirling, rapidly shifting inconsistent 18mph wind, and as near as I can see the only thing to do would see what condition seems to dominate for the longest period of time, find the hold point for that and try to get off some shots whenever the flag gets to that point and pauses there for a bit which by the way isn’t long. Also, I understand that in these conditions the next flag down might be indicating something totally different going on, so then what? And, is it possible to set the flags up where you can actually see one or more at the bottom or your sight picture through your scope or where do you set them visually? Can all this be done using a good bipod or front rest with a separate rear bag or is it possible only with a one piece rest?

Another big question, I think, is other than just looking at the streamer or a spinner if you have one, how does one judge the actual velocity of the wind? Can you guys do that accurately just by how the streamer is acting? Do you actually use an instrument to get an idea of how hard it’s blowing beforehand or is it just previous experience?

Like I said, lots of questions and I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Joe,

Best way is to shoot sighters. pick the predominate condition and shoot sighters to see where you hold needs to be. I use sail tails and judge the angle of the tail to the vertical of the horizontal plane that the flag vane is pointing.
for example, if the flag is point at 9'o-clock and the tail is exactly straight out horizontally, and my sighter shot went at 3'o-clock aiming dead center then. I would hold at 9'o-clock there's about. if nothing changed the shot should be near if not center.
FYI, this example is pretty extreme unless that is the constant condition I would pick another one with less hold off. the closer your hold is to center less chance of blowing one outside the 100 ring on the ARA.
iR50/50 to me is different as you are trying for center for the X count.

Lee
P.S always trust your sighters the flags may say one thing but where the shot goes is what matters.

 

[TonyinKY]

A good read with lots of advice that still applies to today’s short range Benchrest including shooting in “conditions”:

Amazon.com

 

[JEFFPPC]

Jeff..,RFBR not NBRSA/IBS group.

Ok but the thought still remains and you do have time limits.

 

[TRSR8]

Ok but the thought still remains and you do have time limits.

Well, kind of yes and no. CF which I shoot as well, you can wait out much of that 7 minutes and then run shots. The RF deal, you often don't have that luxury lots of times, the clock is running, sure, but you have to get 25 shots on target and often flags, sighters, require a bunch of holdoff With more elevation involved than CF.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

What about wind velocity? Am I correct in thinking 6shotsor5 is saying that it is mainly knowing your tails and judging from how vertical or horizontal they are?

For the last 7 years I used wind indicators and flags. this year I am going to shoot with flags only, what I noticed the flag's sail tails does the same thing the angle they are at indicates the strength just as good.

I shoot heads up so watching the tails along the bullet flight path has helped catch those strange conditions that the indicators didn't show.

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

For the last 7 years I used wind indicators and flags. this year I am going to shoot with flags only, what I noticed the flag's sail tails does the same thing the angle they are at indicates the strength just as good.

I shoot heads up so watching the tails along the bullet flight path has helped catch those strange conditions that the indicators didn't show.

Lee

I've tried windicators and come to the same conclusion Sir.

Jerry

P.S. Me and my new scope are off to a good start for the new season!!! Thanks again!!!

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I've tried windicators and come to the same conclusion Sir.

Jerry

P.S. Me and my new scope are off to a good start for the new season!!! Thanks again!!!

I saw the scores, great shooting and glad it is worked out for you. it served me well over the years.

Lee

 

[BoydAllen]

Boyd, while your point is certainly correct, you have to factor, it’s one thing to shoot a five shot group in 7 minutes, usually taking 20-30 seconds, it’s a somewhat different animal shooting at 25 separate bulls in 20-30 minutes, I’m the dummy that does both.

So, for rimfire score do you hold off?

 

[JEFFPPC]

Well, kind of yes and no. CF which I shoot as well, you can wait out much of that 7 minutes and then run shots. The RF deal, you often don't have that luxury lots of times, the clock is running, sure, but you have to get 25 shots on target and often flags, sighters, require a bunch of holdoff With more elevation involved than CF.

Holding off at 1000, or 500 or 300 yards requires a lot more adj than 50. The knowledge of how long it takes to get off a given number of shots remains valuble unless your just banging away disregarding conditions in my opinion. To not have that information can only hurt you.My main point which you seem to ignore wanting to argue is that embracing flags can make you a winner. If you don't it's doubtful you will often be a winner. I have shot many disciplines and a core truth is.....He who reads the conditions best usually wins. If you don't embrace your flags your in for a lot of unhappy matches regardless of discipline.

 

[TRSR8]

So, for rimfire score do you hold off?

Most times over 20-30 minutes you have to.
Especially fun when wind does a 180.

 

[Tony K Harper]

I wasn't going to join this thread because the members have such a wide background of experience, I don't think anything I add will be beneficial.

But I will put this out there. Do with it as you will.

I'm speaking only about RFBR not centerfire.

Flags, all flags, lie. They tell you what happened, not what is happening.

Sighters tell you where your bullet went in a particular condition. If you can tell that same condition is out there you have a good chance of your next bullet going like your last.

Shooting the lulls e.g. waiting for the flags to drop and hang is a losing strategy.

Rimfire has far too much vertical for that. It will take two or three shots to confirm you haven't been riding the wind with your last shots. (If you don't understand this, don't worry about it. Only with time on the range will it be important.)

Shoot the push. Find a hold off that works for what you think is the predominate condition and shoot it.

What you feel around you is your best wind flag. If you are about to pull the trigger but something in the back of your mind tells you something isn't right, don't shoot.

You can't give up shots and win with competition being what it is today. Make conditions beat you, don't beat yourself.

When you finish shooting a target you should be exhausted, if you are not, you aren't trying hard enough.

TKH

 

[J.D.Erwin]

I am early in the process of learning to shoot better in the wind and to use wind flags, and besides getting out there and just gaining experience by shooting, would appreciate it if some of you guys who have been doing it for a while now could provide some tips and other sources of information that have helped you out in the past such as forum threads, you tube videos, links to good articles, magazines and books etc..

So far, I am finding that the number of questions coming up exceeds the insights I have gained. Right now I am looking out the window watching a wind flag that I set up in my back yard in a swirling, rapidly shifting inconsistent 18mph wind, and as near as I can see the only thing to do would see what condition seems to dominate for the longest period of time, find the hold point for that and try to get off some shots whenever the flag gets to that point and pauses there for a bit which by the way isn’t long. Also, I understand that in these conditions the next flag down might be indicating something totally different going on, so then what? And, is it possible to set the flags up where you can actually see one or more at the bottom or your sight picture through your scope or where do you set them visually? Can all this be done using a good bipod or front rest with a separate rear bag or is it possible only with a one piece rest?

Another big question, I think, is other than just looking at the streamer or a spinner if you have one, how does one judge the actual velocity of the wind? Can you guys do that accurately just by how the streamer is acting? Do you actually use an instrument to get an idea of how hard it’s blowing beforehand or is it just previous experience?

Like I said, lots of questions and I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I would order the Tony Boyer book on Rilfe Accuracy and read Ch 18 best of luck
Aim small/shoot small
View attachment 1620184View attachment 1620184

 

[jsof]

Some good advice in here and I thank everyone. By the way, yes I did read the your full response 6shotsor5?, but I was hoping for further opinions which I did get, and I can be pretty dense sometimes so I wanted to be sure that in the absence of a windindicator the tail was the main way to judge velocity. I thought your ideas with the Kestral was interesting early on to try and correlate the angle of the streamer with how hard the wind is blowing, but once you have the experience under your belt, is probably me complicating things and I should learn it by shooting and getting a better read on things that way. As Lee and BowChamp, both of whom I respect as really good shooters, say, maybe a device is contraindicated and the time would be better spent getting a more accurate idea of what the tails are saying.
Also, Mr. Harper I always welcome your advice and have read that as you say, the flags are telling you what happened past tense, but I bet you guys with all that experience shoot better for having learned what it all means initially and I'm no where near that level yet (if ever). Thanks for weighing in with more practical real world advice.
I have the Boyer book and plan to re read it.

 

[jsof]

Almost forgot, interesting advice on the weight of the indicator tails from 6shotsor5? (cool reference by the way). Does anyone know what the tails that come with the Graham flags are weightwise?

 

[C.E.Smith043]

The most important wind flag to watch is the one closest to the muzzle. Best to have one at the bench or at least close to it. Then more set up in increments of 25 yards.

The least important wind flag is the one at the target and or behind the target.

One thing I did in the beginning was went to several short range benchrest matches and stood behind the best shooters. You don't have to be hovering over them. 20 yards back or so will allow you to see several shooters flags.

Also set up a good spotting scope to watch that shooters target.
I paid attention to the flag stance when they pulled the trigger. And where the bullet landed.

Didn't take long to see a pattern in the flag vs when they pulled the trigger.

Imo, the best shooters would fire off a bunch of rounds very quickly when the wind held it's condition. And very few sighters.

And they would stop shooting when the condition changed and try to wait for that condition to return.

 

[TRSR8]

Holding off at 1000, or 500 or 300 yards requires a lot more adj than 50. The knowledge of how long it takes to get off a given number of shots remains valuble unless your just banging away disregarding conditions in my opinion. To not have that information can only hurt you.My main point which you seem to ignore wanting to argue is that embracing flags can make you a winner. If you don't it's doubtful you will often be a winner. I have shot many disciplines and a core truth is.....He who reads the conditions best usually wins. If you don't embrace your flags your in for a lot of unhappy matches regardless of discipline.

Maybe you want to re read #11 cause you’re preaching to the wrong guy.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Reading comprehension, I was re0plying to you. Your probably better off not looking at them. No time, too confusing, don't need them......your right.

 

[Jpete]

I hate holding till the conditions come back especially if the rifle is hot, seems like the round changes while sitting in a hot chamber too long and can create a flyer. This situation of waiting on conditions can let you run out of time as well.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I wasn't going to join this thread because the members have such a wide background of experience, I don't think anything I add will be beneficial.

But I will put this out there. Do with it as you will.

I'm speaking only about RFBR not centerfire.

Flags, all flags, lie. They tell you what happened, not what is happening.

Sighters tell you where your bullet went in a particular condition. If you can tell that same condition is out there you have a good chance of your next bullet going like your last.

Shooting the lulls e.g. waiting for the flags to drop and hang is a losing strategy.

Rimfire has far too much vertical for that. It will take two or three shots to confirm you haven't been riding the wind with your last shots. (If you don't understand this, don't worry about it. Only with time on the range will it be important.)

Shoot the push. Find a hold off that works for what you think is the predominate condition and shoot it.

What you feel around you is your best wind flag. If you are about to pull the trigger but something in the back of your mind tells you something isn't right, don't shoot.

You can't give up shots and win with competition being what it is today. Make conditions beat you, don't beat yourself.

When you finish shooting a target you should be exhausted, if you are not, you aren't trying hard enough.

TKH

Good stuff here!!